Lucy Letby Case #6

Status
Thread locked. We start a new thread when they have over 1000 posts, click the blue button to see all threads for this topic and find the latest open thread.
New to Tattle Life? Click "Order Thread by Most Liked Posts" button below to get an idea of what the site is about:
I think I understand what you’re saying- that for each baby, you want to understand how, out of all the possibilities that could have lead to their death, did they decide on it being a deliberate act of harm?

Because in each instance, I doubt there is 100% conclusive proof it was deliberate harm or murder. And I bet that in each case individually, the (hospitally doctory) investigators first thinking would have been ‘ok, which, out of all the scenarios, is the one that best explains it?’ And that that might have been the most statistically common one, before anyone thought that was any harm being done. Which is what I imagine her defence will argue? That there is another, perfectly logical, perfectly plausible cause of death- even if it’s from the doctoring/nursing communities experiences (clinical experience would be a better term!!) or from world wide stats (babies often die of XYZ when ABC).

And even if you add in the fact that LL was the common denominator, the first port of call would be to hypothesise the most explainable reason. Which wouldn’t involve murder or deliberate harm.

But if you look at the cases through the lens of maybe there was foul play, you might start to take note of the other possibilities as to the reason for their deaths/crashes.

And if you are looking for harm done and you find an explanation for that that would be A reasonable explanation (reasonable as in ‘this is legitimately something that could have happened to explain that death/crash’) then despite the lesser statistical probability of it being the case- someone investigating it through that lens might say ‘hold up- THATS why this baby died/crashed.’

So I think I would like to know what the thing was that made the lens go from ‘she’s involved in all these incidents’ to ‘she’s the reason for all these incidents?’

I get that the fact there are explanations in all the cases put forward by the prosecution that there was foul play, and that that alone might be their biggest argument(she was there for all of them and in all of them A reason they died was foul play).

But the defence can say ‘oh, but these other reasons why they could have died are much more likely.’

So how are the prosecution going to prove it beyond reasonable doubt?

Nb. The insulin being no accident thing does somewhat throw a spanner in the works of my thinking- but the defence will argue why it can’t be 100% proved as definitively a deliberate act of harm by LL I guess.

She’s obviously got the means and opportunity, but what is the motive?

Also, I think I’ve confused myself.
That made perfect sense to me.

Up to now, I do think she's guilty because of the whole 'coincidental' reasoning and the high number of events that she was involved in.
BUT, there's also so much that doesn't add up and as you say, the evidence that prosecution produce will need to go beyond statistical, otherwise defence will rip it to shreds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 18
I've just read and re-read the Wiki regarding the insulin incident and I can't get my head around it. If the babies condition continued whilst LL wasn't there - what can be gleaned from that? I'm at a bit of a loss regarding the timings and bags.


No, not a quote. He did go on to say he saw her standing over baby and not reacting to the monitor/machine.

I wonder if they will go further into what concerns were raised at that point, because she was still allowed contact with babies, even after the esteemed Dr was worried enough to dump his paperwork to go and find her? If you're convinced someone is hurting/potentially killing babies, do you report it to your line manager and then be satisfied that they get moved to days?

If he's the senior medic and things were going to tit on his ward, it makes sense for him to place that blame at someone else's door rather than his own I guess.
I’m sure what he said will be looked into. Thoroughly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5
Side note: The police wouldn’t have dug up her garden if they didn’t have very solid reason to suspect something more than a coincidence. I think there’s much more to come out especially with this advert for a new detective on the ongoing case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 20
That made perfect sense to me.

Up to now, I do think she's guilty because of the whole 'coincidental' reasoning and the high number of events that she was involved in.
BUT, there's also so much that doesn't add up and as you say, the evidence that prosecution produce will need to go beyond statistical, otherwise defence will rip it to shreds.
Note 'coincidental' has quotation marks before I get anyone saying it was more than coincidence!
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 6
See Lucy doesn't keep a record of something - suspicious.
Someone else doesn't record something Lucy says she said - must not have happened.

It just feels to me things are being forced to fit abit. Is it really a coincidence that stillbirths were sky high that same year she's alleged to have murdered the babies? Why are the new experts more credible then the ones who initially stated causes of death to be things like pneumonia? If the prosecution are calling that note a confession, what else are they going over the top about? One baby it is said she never had any contact with the IV bag shes meant to have poisoned?? Prosecution claim she was getting away with these murders via all these different means and then turned around and decided she would physically attack a baby, to what keep under the radar? They claim its not possible its a coincidence she was there at all these deaths and collapses but then we have a baby she wasn't even present for 'Oh she must of done something beforehand then'. Honestly not arguing but do things like this not make anyones eyebrows raise just a little?
With regards to new experts being more credible - I think I’m inclined to believe the people who did the original post mortems were probably unconsciously biased because the babies never left the hospital so I don’t think suspicious circumstances would have even entered their head. Some of the PM outcomes were unexplained. You might say the new experts might have an unconscious bias but there are at least 5 of them and if they all agree it’s going to be really hard to dispute their evidence. I wonder if the pathologists who did the original post mortems will be witnesses and if they have a change of view.

I don’t think the prosecution were over the top with the confession. I know there is a lot of debate about it but it’s still a significant bit of evidence that forms part of the bigger picture. Someone could tell me over and over she wrote it out of stress and anguish but I just can’t accept it. It will take a lot for me to change my mind on why someone would write they killed them on purpose when they didn’t.

The IV bag has been explained a few times so I won’t go into so much detail again but there is expert evidence that the only possible explanation is the first bag was contaminated, and Lucy had access to the bag. Even the second bag it looks like she might have had access to (as likely a stock bag from the fridge) but all the defence have said so far was she wasn’t on shift when that second bag was given to the baby. That doesn’t rule her out.

You'll need a best published wiki author award at the end of all of this!
Thank you for your dedication!
Shame I can’t put it on my CV! 🤣🤣
 
  • Like
  • Heart
Reactions: 23
Gosh there’s no doubt about the June job advert being Lucy related is it:

“This investigation is one of significant national prominence” big understatement there :(

“You will be leading and Deputising as appropriate on a sensitive and challenging investigation across the force area and beyond investigating the murder and attempted murder of infants.”

“…dedicated to the once in a career investigation”

“…recruited directly into the investigation for an initial 3 year period” initial? Christ how much more

“…Investigatory base at Chester, however, there will be a requirement to work/share duty time across Cheshire and Manchester due to a lengthy trial 2022/23 in Manchester.”



 
  • Like
  • Wow
  • Sad
Reactions: 22
Hi everyone, had trouble finding the thread tonight dk why. Just thought I'd share a YouTuber that's seems to be covering parts of the case, they do like an overview of the day. It's called 'crime scene 2 courtroom'. Its not a channel just for the case but It does seem to be covering alot of the trial.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10
How long do postmortem results take to come back? After the first death was deemed to be deliberate then why wasn’t there a major investigation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6
Side note: The police wouldn’t have dug up her garden if they didn’t have very solid reason to suspect something more than a coincidence. I think there’s much more to come out especially with this advert for a new detective on the ongoing case.
I take it that you were referring to my post above.

Well it's exactly what I said when I originally posted the job advert in the 2nd thread!
Note I wrote 'coincidental' with quotation marks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2
I definitely think either we’ll get evidence of historic suspicious behaviours or something that’s triggered her in some way, whether miscarriage, break up or other kind of trauma. Not trying to excuse her, I just think it’s the most likely thing to happen? 🤷🏼‍♀️
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9
I've just read and re-read the Wiki regarding the insulin incident and I can't get my head around it. If the babies condition continued whilst LL wasn't there - what can be gleaned from that? I'm at a bit of a loss regarding the timings and bags.


No, not a quote. He did go on to say he saw her standing over baby and not reacting to the monitor/machine.

I wonder if they will go further into what concerns were raised at that point, because she was still allowed contact with babies, even after the esteemed Dr was worried enough to dump his paperwork to go and find her? If you're convinced someone is hurting/potentially killing babies, do you report it to your line manager and then be satisfied that they get moved to days?

If he's the senior medic and things were going to tit on his ward, it makes sense for him to place that blame at someone else's door rather than his own I guess.
Poor doctor, I hope he never hears any whispering like that thrown his way. That’s such a serious accusation and allegation isn’t it. To think he’d sit there and put these parents through THIS because he didn’t want his ward or himself to look bad… and now it looks..good somehow? Respectfully, strong disagree. And then I guess the independent medical experts and everybody else is in cahoots with him to keep making the trust look so good and get them out of hot water with this huge trial and massive spotlight on what went on 😬
 
  • Like
  • Heart
Reactions: 14
I think I understand what you’re saying- that for each baby, you want to understand how, out of all the possibilities that could have lead to their death, did they decide on it being a deliberate act of harm?

Because in each instance, I doubt there is 100% conclusive proof it was deliberate harm or murder. And I bet that in each case individually, the (hospitally doctory) investigators first thinking would have been ‘ok, which, out of all the scenarios, is the one that best explains it?’ And that that might have been the most statistically common one, before anyone thought that was any harm being done. Which is what I imagine her defence will argue? That there is another, perfectly logical, perfectly plausible cause of death- even if it’s from the doctoring/nursing communities experiences (clinical experience would be a better term!!) or from world wide stats (babies often die of XYZ when ABC).

And even if you add in the fact that LL was the common denominator, the first port of call would be to hypothesise the most explainable reason. Which wouldn’t involve murder or deliberate harm.

But if you look at the cases through the lens of maybe there was foul play, you might start to take note of the other possibilities as to the reason for their deaths/crashes.

And if you are looking for harm done and you find an explanation for that that would be A reasonable explanation (reasonable as in ‘this is legitimately something that could have happened to explain that death/crash’) then despite the lesser statistical probability of it being the case- someone investigating it through that lens might say ‘hold up- THATS why this baby died/crashed.’

So I think I would like to know what the thing was that made the lens go from ‘she’s involved in all these incidents’ to ‘she’s the reason for all these incidents?’

I get that the fact there are explanations in all the cases put forward by the prosecution that there was foul play, and that that alone might be their biggest argument(she was there for all of them and in all of them A reason they died was foul play).

But the defence can say ‘oh, but these other reasons why they could have died are much more likely.’

So how are the prosecution going to prove it beyond reasonable doubt?

Nb. The insulin being no accident thing does somewhat throw a spanner in the works of my thinking- but the defence will argue why it can’t be 100% proved as definitively a deliberate act of harm by LL I guess.

She’s obviously got the means and opportunity, but what is the motive?

Also, I think I’ve confused myself.
totally agree with what you’ve said

correlation doesn’t equal causation.

i still have a horrible feeling she’s guilty tho ☹
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 6
Shame I can’t put it on my CV! 🤣🤣
Well, you can, but not directly I guess 😆.
You’ve gone through different sources of text and been able to summarise and organise it, all in a tight turnaround time. The fact you’ve done this quick shows you can deliver under pressure and can’t have procrastinated much! I say that shows organisation, focus and ability to handle lots of data. If I knew your name I’d be on your Facebook and linkedin nosey-ing 🧐 what you did in your real job 😅
 
  • Like
  • Heart
Reactions: 17
Gosh there’s no doubt about the June job advert being Lucy related is it:

“This investigation is one of significant national prominence” big understatement there :(

“You will be leading and Deputising as appropriate on a sensitive and challenging investigation across the force area and beyond investigating the murder and attempted murder of infants.”

“…dedicated to the once in a career investigation”

“…recruited directly into the investigation for an initial 3 year period” initial? Christ how much more

“…Investigatory base at Chester, however, there will be a requirement to work/share duty time across Cheshire and Manchester due to a lengthy trial 2022/23 in Manchester.”



Maybe the detective will be looking into all the other murderous nurses that must have been on shift when she was and all the big baddy doctors and nhs big wigs that are conspiring to get themselves off the hook. (Just ignore me. Please everyone just ignore me. What if I say I’m completely serious, am I allowed then?)
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 12
I take it that you were referring to my post above.

Well it's exactly what I said when I originally posted the job advert in the 2nd thread!
Note I wrote 'coincidental' with quotation marks.
Oh sorry no it wasn’t, I hadnt even seen your post yet ! Not sure what you mean but nothing was directed at you😊 I was just thinking aloud
 
  • Like
  • Heart
Reactions: 3
I have agreed with 99.9% of what you’ve said in these threads!
It doesn’t completely add up for me.
I don’t know if I’m coming from my view point, because I don’t want to accept the alternative could be true.
But I do work for the NHS, and I do know it’s failing and I’ve seen people lose their jobs so that my trust can be ‘seen to be doing something’.
I have first hand, been the victim of my ‘face not fitting’ and having allegations put towards me that simply were not true, because that organisation had decided they wanted me gone. Ok I wasn’t accused of murder, but I was accused of things I simply wouldn’t do, because my conscience would never let me.

It just seems really off to me. But I will follow closely, and am prepared to be proven wrong.

I saw a post up thread where a PP had quoted an article where LL apparently looked at people crying in the public gallery ‘expressionless’. This is all that’s going to be reported, the stuff that can be misinterpreted.
They won’t mention if she’s sat there looking broken, or looking over to her parents for reassurance.
If she’s guilty, then yes she is more likely to have no remorse, and have no empathy to the victims families.
If she is innocent, she may be absolutely petrified by how any of her actions may be interpreted, so therefore is trying to refrain from showing any emotion.
I am also struggling with these claims about her looking "expressionless". It reminds me of the accusations levelled at women who are raped who shutdown emotionally, when in reality they are deeply traumatised and its framed as them seeming unbothered. Its simply too early to accurately interpret what her reactions mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 24
We have a second wiki page now, Yel kindly set one up quickly. Apparently page 1 had 27000 words! (Mostly Mark Dowling’s 😂). I’ve put sections child I to Child Q on page two with links between the two so hopefully it’s still easy to navigate.
Thank you.

where can I learn how to edit.

I thought it might be good to store things like that note LL wrote which the prosecution claimed was a confession?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2
Gosh there’s no doubt about the June job advert being Lucy related is it:

“This investigation is one of significant national prominence” big understatement there :(

“You will be leading and Deputising as appropriate on a sensitive and challenging investigation across the force area and beyond investigating the murder and attempted murder of infants.”

“…dedicated to the once in a career investigation”

“…recruited directly into the investigation for an initial 3 year period” initial? Christ how much more

“…Investigatory base at Chester, however, there will be a requirement to work/share duty time across Cheshire and Manchester due to a lengthy trial 2022/23 in Manchester.”



This aswell got me wondering...

'investigation across the force area and beyond'
 
  • Like
  • Wow
  • Sad
Reactions: 11
I definitely think either we’ll get evidence of historic suspicious behaviours or something that’s triggered her in some way, whether miscarriage, break up or other kind of trauma. Not trying to excuse her, I just think it’s the most likely thing to happen? 🤷🏼‍♀️
I’m keen to find a “trigger” too. I feel I just have to know what would make you want to do this if it wasn’t notoriety or attention. Surely to god it wasn’t just jealousy that perhaps “everyone” around her was pairing off and starting families. And she was fuming worried she’d never have that herself? She was only 25 but who knows. Did she ever have a boyfriend or girlfriend. So many questions I hope come to the surface.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5
Status
Thread locked. We start a new thread when they have over 1000 posts, click the blue button to see all threads for this topic and find the latest open thread.