Lucy Letby case #25

[riddleme89]

Nah this is too much my poor mums just arrived with Starbucks ive took the iced latte and sent her in her way ….. with the kids in tow

 

[DellaC]

So I mentioned a few times here I was pregnant, not due for another few weeks but I had baby a few days ago at 33 weeks. Currently in special care.

Just wanted to say it has taken on a new level of horror for me in my current situation. I was listening to the special care nurse yesterday describe my daughters care and I was all too familiar with the terminology and procedures they were using thanks to following this trial.

I was struck by the helplessness these parents must have felt unable to be with their babies too. Daddy at work and mummy trapped on a different floor recovering from an emergency c section. Not getting to hold them, smell them, watch them sleep and then having to trust strangers to care for them in your absence.

My baby is 33 weeks, 5lbs (was, I say she is less now), plump little typical 33 week premi. She has issues (breathing, a bit of cpr when born) but she is being looked after and all going well she will be home with me in just over 2 weeks.

I'm stuck in my room away from her and all I can think is, would she have been Letby's perfect target? She robbed these parents of so much. It's just so fucked up.

Oh my darling. Massive congratulations on your bundle of joy 🩷

The separation is so difficult and the feeding times and visiting times are so important. You just watch the clock until you can see your bubba. But yes. It's this that made them a great target for her.

Glad to hear your little lady is receiving the best of treatment as my boy did. Letby was one monster amongst thousands of angels thankfully.

Now I'm giving you special permission to name your baby after me. Obviously Della is my made up tattle name but for this momentous occasion I'm going to reveal my identity. My real name is Fanny and I'd be truly honoured if you felt like you wanted to name your daughter after me (and all the other fanny's in the world)

Take care lovey and I hope you and your girl will be home soon 🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷

 

[stardust1]

Nobody is using the word ‘killed’ in a hospital situation. And saying oh yeah maybe it was me that ‘killed’ them nope. Killed on purpose because I’m evil…even more nope

I just don’t get how killed even comes into the equation. There must be 100 explanations before you get to killed

 

[DellaC]

@Tofino I double dog dare you to rock up to court today, find a scouser in trackies (no offence to any tracksuit wearing Liverpudlians) and in your most seductive voice say 'you wanted me Mr Walker?'

 

[stardust1]

Can we all admit she’s fucking weird even if she was innocent. What a strange woman

 

[PsychoticPrincess]

I wonder what one of them drawers was her massive suction cup dildo in . Imagine the police finding it probably why she started crying when her bedroom was shown in court

 

[coffeeandwine]

Oh, Choc Doc, you utter moron...

Keeping a timeline of events you supposedly had no involvement in, before you've been officially implicated in anything, then denying any recollection of said events, is a very dumb move from LL too.

 

[Windowtothewall]

So the diary they showed was her 2016 one, and the green post it note was found in THAT diary.

From Chester Standard: A page from Letby's 2016 diary is shown to the court.
The post-it note, found inside the diary, is one which was shown in the first week of the trial.

So that note was written in 2016, when she was going through a grievance procedure. Back then she had support from the hospital bosses, her union, the nursing seniors, still had her admin job. It would only have been max 5-6 months since she had been moved to admin - and Sept 2016 she was still angry that her union rep told her she should avoid socialising with staff in case they were being interviewed. I find it really hard to believe she was so anguished at that point she thought "I am Evil", "I killed them on purpose".

ETA: Chester Police weren't even brought in till May 2017 so that note was written way before it became a criminal investigation with murder on the cards...

I had initially thought the note was written like much later, maybe 2017 or 2018 when she'd been going through a year of this and police were involved. Not a few months!

 

[raspberryjuice]

Whatever notes are in the bag we know she’s intentionally kept them (trophies?) because she can only have bought that bag a fortnight before the admin move. Gone are any thoughts she’s taken them home and forgotten about them, meant to take them back and forgotten etc. These are stored in a bag she bought just days before murdering 2 babies and attempting to kill a third. They are kept on purpose.

 

[Morning_Star]

agree. I felt the circumstances around baby Q weren’t as blatant as some of what we’ve heard and even though the charge is there objectively and correctly, there’s something for me that feels like it’s more about highlighting her behaviour around the events as opposed to the events themselves.

You're right about Baby Q. For me, what makes Baby Q's collapse so significant to the prosecution's case is its prediction by Dr. Gibbs the day before the baby collapsed, and the conversations that were going on behind the scenes about removing LL. Dr. Gibbs was adamant after Babies P & O were allegedly attacked consecutively one day after the other that unless LL is removed from the ward, then another collapse/death would occur on the following (third) day. LL refused to take the day off as suggested by Dr Gibbs, and the Head of Nursing refused to remove her. Lo and behold, on Day 3, as predicted by Dr. Gibbs, Baby Q collapses and large amounts of clear liquid/mucus + air is vomited/aspirated from the child (a more or less common modus operandi with the exception that the liquid here is clear instead of being milk). So, for me, it's the fact that Dr Gibbs said it would happen, and it did happen, plus the similarity in MO with the other cases, that makes Baby Q's collapse significant.

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In answer to a previous question you asked about FB searches LL did on dates of significance, LL searched Facebook for Babies P & O's surname on the anniversary of Baby P's death. I think this too is significant because she seems to have remembered the exact date he died a year later, as evidence by the FB search, but then fails to remember doing so/or the reason she did so, in police interviews. So on the one hand, she has a sharp enough memory to remember the child's exact date of death, and yet on the other, she tells police she cannot remember if and why she did the FB searches, implying she's not very good at remembering these things (which by the way I think is a lie given she remembered the date and child's surname a year after the event). I also ask myself why someone would pick the anniversary of a child's death to search for their parents on FB. What exactly, or even vaguely, could they expect to find? It seems obvious to me (though I might be wrong of course) she believed the parents might post something sad remembering the passing of their child. If so, what an odd thing to go looking for. I accept that family and friends might do that to go offer their condolences, but for a nurse who was later accused of murdering them, it rings all my "she's a sadist/she's looking for trophies" alarm bells.

BTW she did similar searches on Xmas Day (or New year's. Can't seem to remember the exact day) in the case of at least another baby she's accused of murdering.

 

[MmmB777]

So on 27th June she gets a call to not come in on nights and only do day shifts.
6th July she gets forwarded an email from Dr B that she is being investigated and everyone will be under clinical supervision (triggered by baby collapses)
6th July or the next day - she says she's made a timeline of events OVER THE LAST YEAR.

How did she know they were looking at the entire year, and not a few weeks/months or a few years????
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Also she made a timeline in July 2016 - a grievance procedure sometime in 2016/2017 - yet in 2018 can't remember anything the police ask her about these cases. Riiiiiiiight.

Just realised maybe bloody Noname gave her her timeline when he forwarded the email.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

ok a bit messy but not massively cluttered / hoarding.

need to add teddy bears to matalan/live laugh love list of character traits.
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Gonna make sure I make my bed every single day now just incase I’m ever arrested and put on trial and my bedroom is shown to the world

I have a good tidy up every time I leave my gaff. Just incase I'm burgled or police raid me lmao. No fucker is gonna spread the word I live in a shit tip. No chance.

 

[Danica Catrick]

If for some utterly BIZARRE reason she gets NG on all the charges and walks she could legally be arrested on other matters via Operation Hummingbird on the steps of Manchester Crown Court.
I too do not believe Baby A was her first sadly.

This is something I struggled with - the person who murdered baby A so shortly after coming on shift, and then moved on to baby B so quickly had to be experienced and confident they wouldn't get caught. Definitely not a first time offender. At first, this made me doubt LL's guilt, but now I'm more inclined to think there's a lot more to come out

 

[Stiltoncheese]

I'm a social worker (adults not kids) and we have largely worked from home since covid began, with just an occasional office day. We obviously still do all the client visits but if I'm not visiting someone then I am generally at home.

Any client stuff we have gets taken into the office and confidentially shredded as soon as I'm next I'm the office. I think on maybe just one occasion I stopped using an old work bag and when I went to use it again there was an old client thing in there so off to work ot went for shredding. Can't imagine keeping stuff...I have enough of my own shit to store without needing other paperwork kicking about!!

 

[nothinonyou]

i once lost my passport the night before a big friend's holiday. my friends came over the morning of the flight to help me search and it was so embarrassing. my room was a tip and I put my sex toys in a bag in the bathroom hoping they wouldn't open the bag. they did of course but didn't say anything, bless them. i still can't look them in the eye and never found my passport

 

[Salted Caramel]

Lucy complaining about the state of the unit and how understaffed they were is laughable given the amount of time she seemed to spend on every shift messaging people. I’m surprised staff are even allowed personal phones on them during their shifts in the first place.

Having had the misfortune to spend several hours at hospital with a friend last weekend, I observed numerous care assistants and nurses using what appeared to be personal phones (lockscreen family /partner photos), some times whilst ignoring patient bells and literal cries for help. From the moment we arrived (friend in ambulance, me following in car) it seemed absolutely chaotic and badly managed.

 

[raspberryjuice]

The scapegoat theory is easy to dismiss when you consider all her texts tie in perfectly with what was going on, as do her Facebook searches and she had medical notes at home hidden under her bed. And she wrote a note confessing. What a stroke of luck for the hospital if they were trying to scapegoat her for this.

 

[DellaC]

I've read today's updates in a Tramadol haze (bloody Sciatica), I already felt like I was on another planet but reading all this just makes my head spin more.

I hope there's more meat to add to the bones.

She's an odd little fucker ain't she? Like a petulant, lovesick teenager.

It's clear to see that the police have left no stone unturned to get as much evidence as they can to nail her.

 

[Morning_Star]

There is zero evidence that quality of care contributed to the deaths though. So why would that be considered reasonable doubt?

However there is A LOT of evidence that the deaths were caused due to intentional harm - e.g. insulin poisoning, air embolism, physical harm etc. and for every death / attack that’s been proven to be unnatural, Lucy was with the babies just moments beforehand. That’s more than just bad luck shift statistics. That’s before you get into the other evidence of notes, searches, paperwork, messages and general behaviour.

Hopefully the jury see past BM trying to create doubt from zero evidence.
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I know the burden of proof is on prosecution and defence don’t have to provide evidence, but are people just going to take what Ben Myers says at face value?

If Ben Myers wants to create doubt, for me, he needs to back up what he says. Otherwise he could just stand there and ( hypothetically, I know this wouldn’t happen ) say ‘it wasn’t Lucy it was Dr Gibbs’ and people would just think that’s reasonable doubt? It’s essentially the same thing as him saying ‘it wasn’t Lucy it was quality of care’ but providing no evidence for it.

Hello, long time lurker, but never posted before. Thank you for all for the posts, comments, the wiki (which is amazing!), and the community here. Very insightful comments, and very sad case.

I’m leaning towards guilty because, statically speaking, her being NG (yet found at every cot, or baby death on each of her shifts and hers alone) is highly improbable. I’ve found the defence’s arguments laughable for the most part because they often involves the same obvious (and, in my opinion, inadequate) tactics of effectively saying the experts aren't really experts, or they are, but suffer from poor memory and bias. Some people on other websites are saying the defence has successfully introduced reasonable doubt. But that's like saying that if it is a possibility for the Sun to rise from the West tomorrow (I mean, it literally is possible) then it is perfectly reasonable to doubt that it might rise from the East tomorrow (which isn't reasonable at all)! I'm glad the pathologist pulled the defence up on this and pointed out to the jury the difference between 'possible' and 'probable'. I'm sure they took note.

I know some people are wondering about motive and the fact that she’s too beige, so if she’s guilty, they can’t work out why she’d do it. I think Katherine Ramsland’s book is very insightful (apologies if someone else has already posted a link to this and I’ve missed it):

http://repository.umpwr.ac.id:8080/bitstream/handle/123456789/194/Inside%20the%20Minds%20of%20Serial%20Killers%20-%20Why%20They%20Kill.pdf?sequence=1

Chapter 15 (p.153) is a really interesting read about the psychology and motivation of serial killers in healthcare. It also contains valuable information with regards to “signals” that help spotting them — in particular, where she says that:

“The most susceptible patients [victims] are very young children and the elderly or critically ill. In other words, the ones least likely to tell someone what a nurse has done. ... Statistically, there is a higher death rate when the suspected person is on shift, and the suspicious deaths are generally unexpected.”

Speaking of statistics, I came across this article from the Guardian published in 2017 (before LL was named suspect) which states the number of babies that died on the ward prior to and during the time LL worked there. (Again, apologies if this link has already been posted here and I've missed it.) I think, statistically speaking, the figures speak for themselves:

2013 - 2 babies died at NICU at CoCH
2014 - 3 babies died
2015 - 8 babies died
Jan-June 2016 - 5 babies died (and that's in the space of only 6 months!)

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...g-baby-deaths-at-countess-of-chester-hospital

I also think the FB searches on anniversaries of babies’ deaths, Christmas and other significant dates is very damning. I can’t imagine why someone who wasn’t looking for some sort of reaction from the parents of the dead babies would do that, which if true, indicates a degree of sadism and getting pleasure from seeing other people's pain. Add to that the memory boxes, photos of condolence cards, medical paperwork containing info of babies she's allegedly attacked, etc. and it could potentially point to something more sinister and macabre. The post-it note is pretty damning too. As others here have mentioned, it wasn't written under duress, so very hard to explain away.

Obviously we’ve only heard snippets of what’s been presented in court and the defence have yet to present their side, so we don’t have the full picture, but honestly, from what I’ve heard and read so far, I agree entirely with Tofino that there's a lot of evidence and her defence have quite a mountain to climb.

 

[IGiveUp22]

I honestly think applying logic to an (alleged) serial killer is a none start. These people have such a high level of opinion of themselves, absolute god complex, they do not think they will ever get caught. So the fact she didn’t “clear her house” is irrelevant. She won’t have thought she needed to and those “trophies” were worth more to her than the slight chance they’d ever get found. Same with the searches.

Of course, we can all sit here now and be like “why didnt she get rid of this” “why did she text that” “why didn’t she delete her search history” that’s because we’re looking at it with everything we know now. Many many killers, even those that aren’t serial, never ever ever think of the consequences - that happens afterwards. So if you then add into the mix she never thought they’d pin it on her, why would she cover her tracks?

edited to add - sorry don’t want this to come across like I’m dismissing peoples views or opinions. Appreciate everyone has different ones. We have gone over a lot of this stuff in previous threads if you’re a new comer btw & had all these thoughts/ideas thrown around before. It’s a very emotive case so I get why many are unsure or even kind of just want her to be innocent as the alternative is horrendous