Lucy Letby Case #18

[raspberryjuice]

If a stock bag was used at the time the line was changed, and has to be out of the fridge for 4hrs - could she not just have taken it out of the fridge before leaving? Baby F was already deteriorating fast at this point so they must have been preparing for various interventions anyway to try an eliminate the cause? They obviously wouldn’t have suspected the bag was contaminated with insulin but it would also make sense at that point that they went back to a stock TPN rather than the bespoke as they’d already know the issues started when it was connected. It may have already been suggested the bag may needed to be changed prior to the line tissuing and it becoming more urgent so a stock bag was prepped ready?

Also when the bag is out of the fridge how long does it last? Is it routine to have one out ready rather than have to wait 4hrs for it to be ready incase a baby is born and needs one and they can’t wait 4 hours?

Although I don’t actually believe the bag was changed I am just throwing out other possibilities.

 

[Chocolate2008]

BA killed babies with insulin at levels of 47,000 odd so depends, I’d say lucy didn’t want to initially kill the baby But cause a drama to then go on tokill them

So if you think her motivation was wanting drama? I can’t follow all the conversations about bags, but what I keep thinking about is motive.

 

[Daisydunn15]

Even if a stock bag was used at 12pm, is it really that far fetched to think Lucy could have tampered with it before she left for her shift? (Given we know someone definitely poisoned that baby so would be that way inclined).

How are the bags stored in the fridge and what is stock rotation like as I assume they have expiry dates? She could have taken a guess they may use a stock bag with baby F as she would know he would be unwell from the original bag and doctors would be doing different treatments, so tampered with the one in the fridge that would most likely to be used next. If they didn’t use it for baby F then it would have been used on another baby instead and maybe she would have just had another victim.

In the context of knowing someone on the ward was deliberately harming babies I don’t think it sounds that far fetched

One of the questions answered by the nurse on thurs confirmed that the stock bags are in no particular order in the fridge, so for her to have contaminated the stock bag too it was either all of them or just the one which they happened to choose. She also had no way of knowing the line would tissue and expected the initial bag to run for 48hr.

ETA: I think it was a defence question. So it sounds like this is going to be their response to the insulin.

 

[raspberryjuice]

Been up all night worrying that because there was a second bag or that we don’t know how the baby continued to be poisoned.. really think Lucy is innocent. Just a glaringly obvious error by the professor and I just don’t know what to believe now. She wasn’t there for that second bag! How did the police not know this. Just so awful that someone else was poisoning babies and they are still at large. I am now just wondering if they were framing her all along because of all the other evidence or if that is coincidence. Was it somebody on shift for F&L then it will hopefully be quite easy for them to narrow it down. I just hope the poisoner gets caught after Lucy is found innocent. Changing my vote on the poll.

Are you ok? I’m not sure if this is serious or not?

 

[avabella]

Are you ok? I’m not sure if this is serious or not?

No, it’s just yet another dig at anyone trying to understand the logistics of the bags/timings etc.

Perhaps we shouldn’t have any discussion?

 

[Tofino]

One of the questions answered by the nurse on thurs confirmed that the stock bags are in no particular order in the fridge, so for her to have contaminated the stock bag too it was either all of them or just the one which they happened to choose. She also had no way of knowing the line would tissue and expected the initial bag to run for 48hr.

ETA: I think it was a defence question. So it sounds like this is going to be their response to the insulin.

She might not have know the line would tissue but like others have said there might have already been a plan to change bags and one taken out of the fridge. She may have also just taken a guess they may use one and even if they didn’t, she would then have another victim it was used for someone else. Charles Cullen didn’t tamper with all bags, just random ones.

Bags may not have been in any particular order but how are they stored e.g in a pile so you would typically just take the top one? So many unanswered questions but still opportunity for her to tamper with the second bag. Not being on shift when it was hung does not rule her out.
what do you think happened?

 

[abelleza]

No, it’s just yet another dig at anyone trying to understand the logistics of the bags/timings etc.

Perhaps we shouldn’t have any discussion?

I don’t agree with your POV at all avabella but I agree, the nasty sniping and sarcasm on this thread is just off putting.

 

[raspberryjuice]

No, it’s just yet another dig at anyone trying to understand the logistics of the bags/timings etc.

Perhaps we shouldn’t have any discussion?

Oh, ok.
The discussion on the bags is useful, and relevant. The info from court ISN’T clear. Yes it is clear the first bag was contaminated, but the 1 sentence we heard from court on Friday confuses whether there was a second bag at the time the line was first changed after it tissued. Perhaps it will make more sense when the DM podcast comes out or when court resumes on Monday because I don’t think Baby F is finished yet after Mondays delay.

Whether there were 2 bags needs clarifying because I’m sure we were told originally that the original bag continued after the line was first changed (against guidance), and then the bag was changed but not the line which was where the info about insulin sticking to the plastic came from. It was only when everything was changed that the poisoning stopped.

It doesn’t change my opinion on her guilt whatsoever. But discussing it and getting clarity does help everyone. I’m not sure why some are so set on not discussing it when we’ve discussed every other aspect of the trial so far in great detail.

 

[Notworthy]

She might not have know the line would tissue but like others have said there might have already been a plan to change bags and one taken out of the fridge. She may have also just taken a guess they may use one and even if they didn’t, she would then have another victim it was used for someone else. Charles Cullen didn’t tamper with all bags, just random ones.

Bags may not have been in any particular order but how are they stored e.g in a pile so you would typically just take the top one? So many unanswered questions but still opportunity for her to tamper with the second bag. Not being on shift when it was hung does not rule her out.
what do you think happened?

But isn't part of the prosecutions case that she attacked specific babies which have a link between them. How does contaminating random bags fit with that

 

[avabella]

She might not have know the line would tissue but like others have said there might have already been a plan to change bags and one taken out of the fridge. She may have also just taken a guess they may use one and even if they didn’t, she would then have another victim it was used for someone else. Charles Cullen didn’t tamper with all bags, just random ones.

Bags may not have been in any particular order but how are they stored e.g in a pile so you would typically just take the top one? So many unanswered questions but still opportunity for her to tamper with the second bag. Not being on shift when it was hung does not rule her out.
what do you think happened?

Am I right in thinking that I’ve read somewhere - that when a bag is being taken out to be used, it is squeezed/checked for damage to the bag? That would show a leak? Or would anything injected be done through a port?

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I agree we need to hear from the pharmacists. Is it possible they were contaminated there? I did mention this before.

That theory is pretty much a non runner. It has been mentioned here a couple of threads back.

There is a reason that even the defence have conceded that the insulin in the bag was deliberate and malicious.

It wasn't an accident, that's not even up for debate by defence at the moment.

 

[raspberryjuice]

Am I right in thinking that I’ve read somewhere - that when a bag is being taken out to be used, it is squeezed/checked for damage to the bag? That would show a leak? Or would anything injected be done through a port?

I believe that’s ‘good practice’ but there’s not a huge amount of ‘good practice’ going on in general on the ward.
But it was clarified several pages ago that the bags have a self sealing port on that can be injected through.

 

[Tofino]

But isn't part of the prosecutions case that she attacked specific babies which have a link between them. How does contaminating random bags fir with that

I don’t think prosecution have actually said that (admit I may have forgotten though). I thought it was just thread speculation. Why that baby and not this one.

What I mean though is she may have hoped that stock bag would go to baby F even if she couldn’t be sure it would. So still targeting baby F but if it went to another baby instead then would that really bother her when she’s already attacking babies?

Purely speculation on how she may have tampered with the stock bag but I think defence are suggesting and some posters are thinking because she wasn’t on shift when bag 2 was hung it completely rules her out, but it doesn’t. Plenty of ways how she might have tampered with it.

The most important evidence is who has access to the first bag on both baby F and baby L as that was the first bag to be contaminated but very few people had access to it.

 

[Daisydunn15]

She might not have know the line would tissue but like others have said there might have already been a plan to change bags and one taken out of the fridge. She may have also just taken a guess they may use one and even if they didn’t, she would then have another victim it was used for someone else. Charles Cullen didn’t tamper with all bags, just random ones.

Bags may not have been in any particular order but how are they stored e.g in a pile so you would typically just take the top one? So many unanswered questions but still opportunity for her to tamper with the second bag. Not being on shift when it was hung does not rule her out.
what do you think happened?

The bag was up for 48hr so I don't think she'd have known to take out another. If she's guilty she'd have been hoping the line didn't tissue and bag didn't change, so the insulin could continue.
I honestly don't know what I think happened. It does seem that the first bag was contaminated. If she's guilty then I think the bag was never changed, but that contradicts the nurses evidence, and they all seem to accept that there were two bags. If it was changed for a stock bag without contamination then it contradicts the professor. If she injected insulin into every bag then we'd have more evidence around poisonings. I think either way the defence have a lot to play with to create reasonable doubt.

 

[avabella]

I’m wondering if it’s just a general confusion over the second bag - the babies blood sample was taken during that second bag wasn’t it? So the first bag could have been contaminated and had babies blood been checked at that point, the insulin level may well have been much higher?

 

[Daisydunn15]

I’m wondering if it’s just a general confusion over the second bag - the babies blood sample was taken during that second bag wasn’t it? So the first bag could have been contaminated and had babies blood been checked at that point, the insulin level may well have been much higher?

The blood glucose readings were similar throughout the day, so the professor said the rate of infusion would have been the same right across the day from 12.35 till 7ish when the bag came down.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Oh, ok.
The discussion on the bags is useful, and relevant. The info from court ISN’T clear. Yes it is clear the first bag was contaminated, but the 1 sentence we heard from court on Friday confuses whether there was a second bag at the time the line was first changed after it tissued. Perhaps it will make more sense when the DM podcast comes out or when court resumes on Monday because I don’t think Baby F is finished yet after Mondays delay.

Whether there were 2 bags needs clarifying because I’m sure we were told originally that the original bag continued after the line was first changed (against guidance), and then the bag was changed but not the line which was where the info about insulin sticking to the plastic came from. It was only when everything was changed that the poisoning stopped.

It doesn’t change my opinion on her guilt whatsoever. But discussing it and getting clarity does help everyone. I’m not sure why some are so set on not discussing it when we’ve discussed every other aspect of the trial so far in great detail.

Yeah it doesn't change the fact that she hung and signed for the first deliberately contaminated bag, that's not even my opinion, that's a fact at this point.

It is my opinion that she was the one who contaminated that bag, defence need to cast doubt on that.

I'm trying not to think about the second bag because it's driving me mad and we can't get the answer until Monday at the earliest!!

Every theory everyone has come up with so far I can agree for and then against/out of!! I can only hope that the jury got a much clearer picture than we did or that they get to ask for clarity on Monday!!

Again, I said this before, this was messy of both the defence and prosecution to leave hanging.

 

[avabella]

The blood glucose readings were similar throughout the day, so the professor said the rate of infusion would have been the same right across the day from 12.35 till 7ish when the bag came down.

An ok so that rules that out then. So there couldn’t have been a second bag surely because if it had been changed and it was the lines that were contaminated, that would reduce the level considerably.

 

[Tofino]

I do think there was a stock bag used by the way as even prosecution refer to it.

I just think that even if she couldn’t have known they would use it, it’s not a reach to think she could have tampered with one just incase they did. She would have known baby would continue to have low blood sugar and that doctors may have suggested to change TPN bag.

 

[Daisydunn15]

An ok so that rules that out then. So there couldn’t have been a second bag surely because if it had been changed and it was the lines that were contaminated, that would reduce the level considerably.

Yeah exactly, you wouldn't have the same rate of infusion from actual insulin in the fluid as you would from trace amounts on the plastic. Also the nurse said you'd change everything after the line tissued.