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I think we have focussed on the safety side of the discussion for a long time - but what about the fairness side of it?

Is it fair for a woman to lose her space on a sports team to someone who is male-bodied?
Is it fair our world records have been broken by people who have spent 30+years living as a man?
Is it fair for a women officer role to be populated by someone who admittedly 'doesnt even have gender dysphoria?'

Is is fair for girls in the USA to lose their chance at a university education when their female only scholarships (which were put in place to mitigate the disadvantage women and girls face in education) are taken by male people.

I dont think it is.

Why are men's feelings more important than mine?
 
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I think we have focussed on the safety side of the discussion for a long time - but what about the fairness side of it?

Is it fair for a woman to lose her space on a sports team to someone who is male-bodied?
Is it fair our world records have been broken by people who have spent 30+years living as a man?
Is it fair for a women officer role to be populated by someone who admittedly 'doesnt even have gender dysphoria?'

Is is fair for girls in the USA to lose their chance at a university education when their female only scholarships (which were put in place to mitigate the disadvantage women and girls face in education) are taken by male people.

I dont think it is.

Why are men's feelings more important than mine?
No, none of that is fair. All of it sucks and should not be allowed to happen.
 
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I took a pause from this thread for a little while as I needed to reflect and didn't want to end up in circular arguments with anyone. In the meantime I found two articles which I think might help explain a 'gender-critical' perspective on the term 'cis' and what it means to be a woman. That's not to say I necessarily agree with everything said, but I thought they were worth reading.

 
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I have to say I find this a very conflicting issue.

I firmly believe that people should unashamedly be able to be who they are, and I would never intentionally make someone feel bad for the way they identify and would also respect their chosen pronouns etc.

In day to day life I would have no issues with transwomen in bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

It gets a bit murky to me when you get to prisons, refuges and sports.

Women generally go to prison for non violent offences whereas with men it is the complete opposite. The reality is a biological man is generally stronger than a woman. Therefore putting a biological man in a women’s prison does potentially put women at risk, and that doesn’t sit right with me. Same as a refuge.

But I also don’t think they should be shoved in with the men where they would be at risk - so is there a solution? I mean the easy answer would be a 3rd category of prison, but trans women don’t want this and you have to ask yourself why. If it was just about safety then they would have no issue - so is it about validation?

It’s a really hard balance because I don’t think anyone’s safety should be sacrificed for the safety of another person and everyone should have access to a safe space they feel comfortable. But the reality is that although not all men are rapists, all rapists are men.. and therefore women should be protected.
 
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Yesterday I was told by a poster that she has been contacted by PM to congratulate her for standing up for trans and posters told her they were afraid to post because of the "ferocity" of the GC side. First of all, it's an anonymous forum so I'm not sure why anyone would be afraid to post. I've never heard of GC people trying to track down TRAs, doxx them and contact their employers. That happens quite a lot in reverse though.

Secondly, it made me wonder about the "ferocity" of the responses. And if anything, I'd say GC people haven't been ferocious enough. Seeing posts about the spoilt authoritarian misogynistic brats in the publishing house has made me realise we are all not angry enough. And we should be.
 

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First of all, it's an anonymous forum so I'm not sure why anyone would be afraid to post. I've never heard of GC people trying to track down TRAs, doxx them and contact their employers. That happens quite a lot in reverse though.
I couldn't agree more. Yet more tone-policing of women who have the temerity to want to stand up for their own rights.
 
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I have seen on a couple of threads (outside of this one) an attempt to stop us chatting about the subject (when it is relevant to the other thread of course).

This is the game plan. Stop us talking. We've gone through threats (doxx, rape, attack, call work - this one happened to me actually) then attempts to stifle conversation (get threads shut down, sue Mumsnet, sue women - Kate Scottow etc) then attempts to make it so it is not seen as virtuous to discuss female only situations, then targeting advertisers, celebrities to engage their followers in this performative virtuosity.

I have been involved in this discussion since 2018, and I think the dam is now bursting.
 
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I have to say I find this a very conflicting issue.

I firmly believe that people should unashamedly be able to be who they are, and I would never intentionally make someone feel bad for the way they identify and would also respect their chosen pronouns etc.

In day to day life I would have no issues with transwomen in bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

It gets a bit murky to me when you get to prisons, refuges and sports.

Women generally go to prison for non violent offences whereas with men it is the complete opposite. The reality is a biological man is generally stronger than a woman. Therefore putting a biological man in a women’s prison does potentially put women at risk, and that doesn’t sit right with me. Same as a refuge.

But I also don’t think they should be shoved in with the men where they would be at risk - so is there a solution? I mean the easy answer would be a 3rd category of prison, but trans women don’t want this and you have to ask yourself why. If it was just about safety then they would have no issue - so is it about validation?

It’s a really hard balance because I don’t think anyone’s safety should be sacrificed for the safety of another person and everyone should have access to a safe space they feel comfortable. But the reality is that although not all men are rapists, all rapists are men.. and therefore women should be protected.
All of this. Thank you for considering the other side.
I’ve seen so many people speak very strongly about the rights of women while completely disregarding trans rights at the same time. Not necessarily here, but generally. Trans rights doesn’t mean less rights for women so it should work that way the other way too.

First of all, it's an anonymous forum so I'm not sure why anyone would be afraid to post.
Idk. This thread seems to be majorly one sided and I’ve disagreed with at least 70% of comments made and to be honest, I have found some extremely unfair and nearing transphobic. I’ve not spoke up because like I said it’s very one sided and while I’m not ‘afraid’ I know most would disagree and I cba with confrontation 🤷🏼‍♀️
 
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All of this. Thank you for considering the other side.
I’ve seen so many people speak very strongly about the rights of women while completely disregarding trans rights at the same time. Not necessarily here, but generally. Trans rights doesn’t mean less rights for women so it should work that way the other way too.


Idk. This thread seems to be majorly one sided and I’ve disagreed with at least 70% of comments made and to be honest, I have found some extremely unfair and nearing transphobic. I’ve not spoke up because like I said it’s very one sided and while I’m not ‘afraid’ I know most would disagree and I cba with confrontation 🤷🏼‍♀️
The misogyny out in the real world is more frightening than anything I've seen here to be honest.
 
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The misogyny out in the real world is more frightening than anything I've seen here to be honest.
I’m not denying misogyny but that doesn’t mean I’m not uncomfortable with some of the things that have been said or implied here towards trans people either.
 
The way some of these activitists go about campaigning for trans rights directly affects women’s rights because they want us to sacrifice our spaces instead of going about getting their own that cater specifically to their needs. That’s where this whole discussion stems from.

Trans people can and should campaign for their rights, they should campaign for healthcare and their own safe spaces or what ever else they feel they need. Women did and now we have services available to many women who need them during times of crisis or desperation, at least in the western world.

Sports is an issue where women are having their rights infringed. The whole reason we have women’s sports in the first place is because biological males on average are stronger and faster, their bone structure, bone density, lung capacity and heart size are not things that disappear with hormone therapy. No matter how much a woman trains, she will not be able to match up physically to her Male equivalent, It wouldn’t be competitive for women without women’s sports and we had to fight for them to exist. Women’s football was banned by the FA for fifty years for goodness sake. However we now have transwomen competing and dominating sports in which they were mediocre when competing as men. It is happening on an Olympic level and grassroots. Women are being injured, losing team spots and records have been broken on a disproportionate scale by these transwomen because women simply cannot compete with their biology no matter how hard they train and im sorry but that’s not fair and it goes against the whole reason women’s sports exist in the first place. Identify how you wish but your body will always remain as the sex you were born as with all the physical attributes typical of your sex and important to acknowledge this, especially when it comes to sports.

I’ve been shouted down many times for saying biological males don’t belong in women’s sports but I stand by it and I always will, because it’s grossly unfair that it’s allowed to happen.
 
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One of my favourite sports/history related topics is the support for women’s professional sports in wartime. It happened in the UK with football during WWI and in the US with baseball during WWII (League of their Own is based on this).

 
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The way some of these activitists go about campaigning for trans rights directly affects women’s rights because they want us to sacrifice our spaces instead of going about getting their own that cater specifically to their needs. That’s where this whole discussion stems from.

Trans people can and should campaign for their rights, they should campaign for healthcare and their own safe spaces or what ever else they feel they need. Women did and now we have services available to many women who need them during times of crisis or desperation, at least in the western world.

Sports is an issue where women are having their rights infringed. The whole reason we have women’s sports in the first place is because biological males on average are stronger and faster, their bone structure, bone density, lung capacity and heart size are not things that disappear with hormone therapy. No matter how much a woman trains, she will not be able to match up physically to her Male equivalent, It wouldn’t be competitive for women without women’s sports and we had to fight for them to exist. Women’s football was banned by the FA for fifty years for goodness sake. However we now have transwomen competing and dominating sports in which they were mediocre when competing as men. It is happening on an Olympic level and grassroots. Women are being injured, losing team spots and records have been broken on a disproportionate scale by these transwomen because women simply cannot compete with their biology no matter how hard they train and im sorry but that’s not fair and it goes against the whole reason women’s sports exist in the first place. Identify how you wish but your body will always remain as the sex you were born as with all the physical attributes typical of your sex and important to acknowledge this, especially when it comes to sports.

I’ve been shouted down many times for saying biological males don’t belong in women’s sports but I stand by it and I always will, because it’s grossly unfair that it’s allowed to happen.
Don’t get me wrong I understand everything you’ve said. It’s not a black and white issue.

My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.

Some comments here have been verging on that for me personally or have just been disrespectful I think🤷🏼‍♀️ But that’s my view.
 
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This is also a very eye opening watch



I honestly can't see how anyone can watch this and think the modern trans ideology is nothing to be frightened of.

It actually is a black and white issue. These men are not women.
 
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My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “disregarding trans people completely”?

Is it disregarding trans people to say that women are entitled to single sex spaces, for their privacy and dignity? Is it disregarding trans people to say that biological sex is real? Is it disregarding trans people to say that you cannot change your sex?

I‘ve literally never come across a single so-called “anti-trans” voice that’s said trans people don’t have the right to live in peace and happiness, using the name they like and wearing the clothing they like. But women’s rights to single sex spaces (be it toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, shelters and sports) trump the rights of any trans woman who seeks validation from being allowed into these spaces. Trans women should campaign for a third space instead... except that isn’t good enough, apparently.
 
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Don’t get me wrong I understand everything you’ve said. It’s not a black and white issue.

My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.

Some comments here have been verging on that for me personally or have just been disrespectful I think🤷🏼‍♀️ But that’s my view.
I’m happy to detail my viewpoint in relation to trans people:

Fully supportive of trans people living as opposite sex, transitioning (hormonal/physical) and working towards living their life in a form that makes them happy.

I will never/have never, ever use/d slurs like “he she” “it” (indeed I have such a deep ingrained understanding that “IT” = Rude thay I cannot deal with people choosing this as a pronoun. I truly struggle with this one!). If someone wishes to be he/she and change their name to Dave/Chelsea etc. I will call them their chosen name with no question.

The rights under gender recognition I support strongly and protection from discrimination in health/education/housing /employment etc etc.

If a trans woman uses a female bathroom, no issues. She will have been through a full journey where she is and if she’s transitioned and is living as a woman, she’s a woman in my view.

However, where I have been struggling with is the new era of “woke” belief on twitter and the blind support for reducing criteria to access gender recognition certificates. Especially when it’s on a self identification basis with limited/little input from medical professionals. If this results in even a tiny % risk to women (inc trans) and girls safety and security being at risk then I cannot support this.

Yes, this is a very murky area with nuance and so many ethical dilemmas. Obviously I (and most others I would assume) do not want trans people to suffer more turmoil, I don’t want trans suicide rates to increase. I want a world where trans can feel accepted and safe. But I also want a world where women and girls safety and hard fought for protections and safe spaces (i.e women’s shelters) are recognised and maintained. I also feel like this mantra of everyone having to accept a narrative, without question, is dangerous. What about critical thought? What about assessing situations and listening to our instincts / voice inside us that tries to reason and explain the unknown?

In today’s world I see the term “transphobic” and “hate” hurled around (not by you as you have been great in opposing and countering viewpoints) but it’s easy for a small fringe of any movement to dominate. I truly believe this does more harm than good as it is likely to confirm potential prejudice in people rather than challenge them.

I don’t have the answers. I don’t think anyone does. One thing I know is I am personally not transphobic and I’m not a radical feminist but I do feel there is real safeguarding issues that need wider discussion before any amendment to GRA / self certifying. And the folk screaming down anyone who doesn’t conform to their group think is not doing the overall cause any good. IMO.
 
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Can you elaborate on what you mean by “disregarding trans people completely”?

Is it disregarding trans people to say that women are entitled to single sex spaces, for their privacy and dignity? Is it disregarding trans people to say that biological sex is real? Is it disregarding trans people to say that you cannot change your sex?

I‘ve literally never come across a single so-called “anti-trans” voice that’s said trans people don’t have the right to live in peace and happiness, using the name they like and wearing the clothing they like. But women’s rights to single sex spaces (be it toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, shelters and sports) trump the rights of any trans woman who seeks validation from being allowed into these spaces. Trans women should campaign for a third space instead... except that isn’t good enough, apparently.
Maybe not so much disregarding, I probably worded that incorrectly, but degrading them to make a point. Calling transwomen men, and vice versa. Calling them all molesters, calling them attention seekers for just wanting to live as they are.

And a unisex third space is good enough but it also comes with risks for trans people. Obviously I know there's always going to be risks with whatever choice and I'll be happy with a unisex third space for my son but it also concerns me too.
 
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