Gender discussions

[ShowMeYourFeline]

I'm guessing you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as you have never had to question "what elements of being male or female that I should identify with". What a privilege it is to not have had to experience feeling like you are in the wrong body. That you don't belong anywhere. How challenging must that be?

I don't really understand how trans people fighting to be recognised sets feminism back at all. What is the issue with being referred to as the gender you feel you are? Women aren't losing any rights because trans people are being recognised and respected.

Women are losing all our rights:
• Transwomen rapists with penises like Karen White in women’s prisons
• bio males like Fallon Fox brutally injuring women in women’s sports, or Rachel McKinnon winning everything
• rape shelters like Vancouver rape relief being defunded due to not accepting bio males
• toilets being invaded by dangerous fetishists like Jonathan/Jessica Yaniv, •women’s festivals like Michfest being shut down
• lesbians being sexually harassed and forced to date transwomen to prove they aren’t transphobic
• women losing their jobs and being arrested for having opinions
• transwomen taking scholarships, jobs and awards meant to level the playing field for women.
• statistically, transwomen retain male pattern criminality, and the strength of men, 80-90% retain their penis and have no intention of having surgery.

Is that enough for you?

Nor should you. We all need to call out ignorance and hate when we see it x

Yes we do, which is why I refuse to let you have alllll the last words with your trashing women’s rights and portraying hard facts as “transphobic”.

No one has any problem with ordinary transgender people, who are calmly living their lives as honorary members of the opposite sex. It’s the recent gender dictators who have sprung up in the last couple of years, who people take issue with.

 

[whowouldhavethought]

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If you have a penis you’re male. That’s just a basic biological fact.

If you have a penis you have Male sexual organs. That doesn't mean you have to identify as Male in gender. Do some research into trans issues and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[pompombear]

If you have a penis you have Male sexual organs. That doesn't mean you have to identify as Male in gender. Do some research into trans issues and stop embarrassing yourself.

What are the elements of being male or female that I should identify with then, so I know I'm one, the either, or neither? Do tell.

"Trans issues" are setting feminism back YEARS due to their insistence that "gender" is fixed and sex is a social construct. Utter bollocks. You cannot change sex. Gender, on the other hand, is a bullshit social construct - you know, the kind that means my four year old son comes home in tears from nursery because some little shit tells him he cannot play with dolls as dolls as "for girls".

Had about as much as I can stand of this utter shite and the woke left's total lack of critical thinking around it.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Yes and male people are the main culprits there. 98% of sexual crime is carried out by male people and 75% of violent crime.

A persons propensity to commit a crime does not change when they identify differently or when they put on different clothes or when they say 'i am something other than a man'. This obviously does not mean I mean there is a correlation between crime and trans people, the correlation is between crime and male people.

Women are afforded single sex provisions to protect us, not from trans people, but from men. If those provisions are removed then women are at risk.

Women should be allowed to meet as a single sex. We have plenty of discrimination that is applied to us on the basis of our sex. Period poverty, abortion care, FGM, trafficking, the female gap due to selective abortion.

I want trans people to feel happy, and I support their desire to express themselves as they please, but I do not see them as the sex they identify with. I'm sorry that that might be painful to them, but you can not coerce me into seeing something I don't. I still see the male privilege.

I want my child to be able to play with and dress how they like. I don't want them to be told 'you might be a girl' if you like toys and dolls and dresses. That is regressive. Boys can wear dresses, and girls can have short hair. How about someone like sam smith saying ' I am a man and I like wearing heels. I like makeup. I like to dance. I feel sexy and i think I look sexy.' I think that would be far more positive than 'I am neither male nor female'. It is disingenuous. We know he is a man. He was certainly a man when he modelled for a menswear collection not long after he said he was non binary. Male when theres some money to be made.

 

[ShowMeYourFeline]

It’s actually physically painful to read this.
What you’ve done here is highlight a few cases of a criminal behaviour by a minuscule percentage of this demographic. Thereby proving nothing other than an issue that you have.
Own your views! But at least have the strength of character to admit to what you are!

Did you miss the part about transwomen statistically retaining male pattern criminality? That means that they are just as dangerous to women as men are. The majority of men and transwomen are normal, safe people. But enough of them (not exactly a “minuscule” percentage) commit violent and sexual crimes against women that women need protection from them - especially since both groups have a massive strength advantage over women.

You have also ignored all of my other points because you don’t have an answer to them.

And I haven’t even mentioned yet the problems of autogynephilia, or how with self-identifying, absolutely any man can claim to be a transwoman to get access to women.

I just see it as one is by chance and one is by choice live and let live..

It’s well past the point of “live and let live” when bio-males have access to all women’s spaces - even rape shelters, prisons and sport.

Why I can't people just be who they want to be. If a bloke what's to identify and dress as a woman good on them and vice versa. I honestly don't care what people want to indentify as, as long as it makes them happy and legal.

I don't care if my son's what action men or to play with Barbie's, I also don't care if they pick a girls toy from the shop. It's up to them. I played with boys and girls toys and had mostly male friends my whole life. I am a straight woman. Just let people be who they want to be.

No one cares about any of this. You’re missing the point.

 

[Argento]

As I understand it much of the concern natural women have with trans women (no disrespect meant by using the words 'natural' and 'trans' - just for differentiation) entering what they would consider their 'safe spaces' is that it is now proposed that a man will be able to self identify as a woman without going through any of steps previously required (hormones,surgery, living as a woman etc) and as a consequence it is open to abuse.

At this time dialogue between activists on both sides is at an impasse, seemingly because neither side is willing to concede ground to any degree and as a consequence the most aggressive on each side hurl hideous abuse at each other. Having read a number of articles and social media debate on this topic, despite have a great deal of sympathy for the difficulties faced by trans women just trying to find place for themselves in society, I find myself leaning toward defending the position of natural women because forcing all women to accept any man can be a woman just because they say they are feels like unjust, repressive and dangerous.

Perhaps considering some other self identification ideas would be helpful.

1. If a 40 year old man chose to self identify as a 7 year old girl would we be happy to allow him to attend primary school and change in the girls changing rooms?
2. If a 25 year old man or woman chose to self identify as a 65 year old would we be happy for them to collect their old age pension?
3. If a 12 year old boy chose to identify as 18 years old would we be happy for them to go to a pub and drink alcohol?
4. If someone chose to self identify as disabled would we be happy to give them a disabled parking badge?
5. if an able bodied person chose to self identify as disabled to win para olympic events would we consider that ok?

I hope you will agree none of these scenarios would be acceptable but in reality is it really any more acceptable to allow men to say they are a women without any checks or balances and have free reign to enter into environments where natural women should feel safe?

 

[bubbletea123]

Something I disagree with is men who have transitioned to women competing in women's sports, such as running, etc. The reason is, even though they have transitioned and are taking hormones, their body stature is completely different than a woman's. They are built much stronger and bigger. That is something you can't change. I think it is unfair for women.

 

[Mycuppatea]

So your issue is trans women who you deem not womanly enough taking over women’s spaces? So are you okay with trans women who have fully transitioned being in women’s spaces? Is it a penis issue? Are you going to deny intersex people who choose to aline with the female gender the right to be in women’s space then? Or is it a period issue? what about women going through menopause or suffering from pcos or women who’ve had their uterus removed? A testosterone issue? There’s biological females with high testosterone, are those women not womanly enough? Not ‘true’ women?


Trans women are psychologically women however biologically male. You can’t psychologically be another race, you can culturally feel more aligned with another race but you can’t change biology. Once again nobody (and I promise you nobody outside of the Twittersphere) is arguing that sex doesn’t exist.

The ‘abuse’ JK Rowling a very rich very privileged white woman faced was centred around the fact she used a time when most of the world is protesting systematic racism to stir up attention for herself

I am an intersex person. I don't have a penis. Unless modern medical science had revealed I had male chromosomes nobody would know I wasn't a woman, just one who didn't have periods or get pregnant. I've always been a daughter and a sister and a wife and a mama but I'd rather be called a man and excluded from women only spaces than have women have to share those spaces with men. I'm a rape survivor and I know women need safe spaces away from people with male genitals. Intersex people are a rare but natural occurrence of a physical variation and we don't prove anything about trans people.

 

[Falkor]

I don't really understand how you can be trans and not experience the gender dysphoria... it's gender dysphoria that causes the extreme distress due to their biological sex. So for me considering that transgender people are people who experience extreme distress due to their biological sex.... I don't understand how you can be trans without that. But I don't know

This is, I think, the main issue that's causing all the arguments.

What the majority of people understand when they see or hear the word trans man/woman/person is the idea of someone who is so certain they were born in the wrong body that it causes them deep distress to inhabit that body without surgical changes, just like your son (who is very lucky to have you).

The vast majority of women have absolutely no problem with trans women in this category sharing their facilities, they have done for years. In the main they're all about blending in, trying not to be noticed and they accept that they'll always be biologically male.

However, the trans rights movement has been hijacked by a second type of trans person, the autogynephiles. Autogynephilia is when a man gets turned on by the idea of himself as a woman and transitions because of that. (In the old days we would have distinguished between the groups as transsexual and transvestite, but some consider these terms offensive now). The autogynephiles rarely have their penises removed, though some do have breast implants and facial feminisation surgery, and refer to the dysphoric surgical path trans people as tru-scum.

Part of the autogynephile fantasy is to be accepted as a woman, hence the reason a third space is not good enough. Being in the women's toilets, changing rooms, on female sports teams, all enhances their sexual fantasy. These are the people telling JK Rowling to suck their lesbian dicks and it's these people who are pushing very, very hard for the reform to self ID laws so that anyone who says 'I am a woman' gets instant access to all female-only spaces, regardless of their biological gender.

This is what the gender critical feminists are so concerned about. (a) because no one should be made to participate in someone else's sexual fantasy without their consent and (b) far more seriously, at the moment the Equality Act allows for single (biological) sex spaces, like toilets and changing rooms, for safety and dignity. If the law changes so that a man who says he is a woman can walk into them, women lose their right to challenge anyone who might take advantage of that change to threaten their safety and dignity. At the moment if I'm in a public loo and a guy walks in, I can (just about) say 'Sorry mate, you're in the wrong one,' and his reaction to that will me whether it was a genuine mistake or whether I need to call 999 and look for something to defend myself with. But if 'Sorry mate, you're in the wrong one,' becomes a hate crime, it leaves women in an extremely vulnerable place.

Sorry, major essay, and I'm typing on my phone, so please forgive typos! I'm only a couple of years down this rabbit hole, so I hope if I've made any errors in the above someone will correct them.

 

[Hepaticus]

Women are losing all our rights:
• Transwomen rapists with penises like Karen White in women’s prisons
• bio males like Fallon Fox brutally injuring women in women’s sports, or Rachel McKinnon winning everything
• rape shelters like Vancouver rape relief being defunded due to not accepting bio males
• toilets being invaded by dangerous fetishists like Jonathan/Jessica Yaniv, •women’s festivals like Michfest being shut down
• lesbians being sexually harassed and forced to date transwomen to prove they aren’t transphobic
• women losing their jobs and being arrested for having opinions
• transwomen taking scholarships, jobs and awards meant to level the playing field for women.
• statistically, transwomen retain male pattern criminality, and the strength of men, 80-90% retain their penis and have no intention of having surgery.

Is that enough for you?



Yes we do, which is why I refuse to let you have alllll the last words with your trashing women’s rights and portraying hard facts as “transphobic”.

No one has any problem with ordinary transgender people, who are calmly living their lives as honorary members of the opposite sex. It’s the recent gender dictators who have sprung up in the last couple of years, who people take issue with.

It’s actually physically painful to read this.
What you’ve done here is highlight a few cases of a criminal behaviour by a minuscule percentage of this demographic. Thereby proving nothing other than an issue that you have.
Own your views! But at least have the strength of character to admit to what you are!

 

[SqualorVictoria]

How is pointing out biological sex is real and only women have periods dog pilling?

And is anyone going to address my post on women’s sport or is that transphobia as well?

That's the thing. This was about women, the trans community and trans activists made it about them. Some of the hateful abuse she has received is utterly shocking. Threats of physical violence and so on. Someone also suggested that JK Rowling just did this to get some attention, which is laughable. She's a multi billionaire author and doesn't need the attention. Maybe she was tweeting because she's a middle aged woman who is fed up with women being reduced to subcategories and "woman" almost being seen as a dirty word.

Oh and I think Daniel Radcliffe selling JK Rowling up the river is despicable. Yet another example of how skewed this new wave of feminism has become. Men are literally telling women how they should feel

 

[whowouldhavethought]

What are the elements of being male or female that I should identify with then, so I know I'm one, the either, or neither? Do tell.

"Trans issues" are setting feminism back YEARS due to their insistence that "gender" is fixed and sex is a social construct. Utter bollocks. You cannot change sex. Gender, on the other hand, is a bullshit social construct - you know, the kind that means my four year old son comes home in tears from nursery because some little shit tells him he cannot play with dolls as dolls as "for girls".

Had about as much as I can stand of this utter shite and the woke left's total lack of critical thinking around it.

I'm guessing you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth as you have never had to question "what elements of being male or female that I should identify with". What a privilege it is to not have had to experience feeling like you are in the wrong body. That you don't belong anywhere. How challenging must that be?

I don't really understand how trans people fighting to be recognised sets feminism back at all. What is the issue with being referred to as the gender you feel you are? Women aren't losing any rights because trans people are being recognised and respected.

 

[GossipMongoose]

I‘m curious as to how biological males know what it feels like to ‘be a woman’? ‘Being a woman’ isn’t a universal experience to all females. They may not be happy with their lives or their situation but what point of reference can they possibly have to ‘know’ that they feel like a woman?

 

[GossipMongoose]

And if you want to bandy around ‘slurs’ like TERF, do it. I couldn’t care less. It is radical feminists who fought for your rights. You owe your freedoms to ‘radical’ feminists. You have a voice thanks to them. Women prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and say NO to the oppression of women (often risking their lives to do so). To push back against the crushing and infringement of our freedom and safety.

That is the true meaning of ‘women supporting women’.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

You feel it’s disingenuous. You.

There are plenty of men who happily say that they like to wear dresses and makeup. They feel comfortable saying they are men who like to do this, because they FEEL like men who like to do this.

Then there are those who like to wear dresses and make up but don’t FEEL like a man. Can I ask, have you ever spent a significant amount of time with an individual like Sam? Someone who was able to fully explain how it feels? I assume you have, to have such strong views on it, so what was it about that individual or those individuals that made you believe that their ability to identify what they are is less than your ability to identify who you are?

I don’t identify as anything, that’s my point. I am a female, I am 5’5. That is my material reality.


And no one can possibly ‘feel’ like a man because what on earth does a man ‘feel’ like? Do they all feel the same? What is that feeling? It’s nothing. Every man probably feels something different Because being a man is about being male. Nothing more or less. It’s not a feeling it’s a sex.

Something I disagree with is men who have transitioned to women competing in women's sports, such as running, etc. The reason is, even though they have transitioned and are taking hormones, their body stature is completely different than a woman's. They are built much stronger and bigger. That is something you can't change. I think it is unfair for women.

absolutely. Even when on testosterone reducing hormones at their lowest level, it still remains at 5x a female level. And then there’s the height, the lung capacity, muscle size, strength etc. The Martina Navratilova documentary on the bbc was really interesting on this.
The IOC have brought in rules in 2016 that have allowed transwomen to compete. Look up Laurel Hubbard, the retired mid 40’s weight lifter who is now smashing all the woman’s records. It’s actually so fucking sad because a woman has lost her world record. It’s not fair.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

I think we have focussed on the safety side of the discussion for a long time - but what about the fairness side of it?

Is it fair for a woman to lose her space on a sports team to someone who is male-bodied?
Is it fair our world records have been broken by people who have spent 30+years living as a man?
Is it fair for a women officer role to be populated by someone who admittedly 'doesnt even have gender dysphoria?'

Is is fair for girls in the USA to lose their chance at a university education when their female only scholarships (which were put in place to mitigate the disadvantage women and girls face in education) are taken by male people.

I dont think it is.

Why are men's feelings more important than mine?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I have a real issue with the word "cis"- why are women now seen as a subcategory of their own gender?

Sorry for double post but just want to add that 'women' is increasingly becoming a dirty word. Trans activists often want 'womxn' to replace it.
I have never seen them call for the word 'men' to be replaced with 'mxn.'

Exactly. I'm sorry but this trans ideology is so damaging to women. It's basically men saying they can be better women than actual women. It's utterly misogynistic at it's core

 

[ShowMeYourFeline]

Hepaticus, you have not countered a single one of my points. You ignore everything you can’t counter, and the only point you have unsuccessfully attempted to counter, basically involves continually screeching that male pattern criminality is so rare as to be irrelevant, which is patently untrue.

Violence and sex crimes in ordinary men is a significant enough problem that all women take daily precautions to avoid it, and women are legally protected from men by sex segregated spaces. According to Lisak and Miller 2002, 6% of men are rapists. This is NOT a tiny percentage. And this doesn’t include minor sex offences and violent crime (although these 6% were also likely to commit violence). My point (well this particular point, you’ve ignored the rest) is that as transwomen as a population retain male pattern criminality, they are just as dangerous as men.

Therefore treating them exactly the same as women puts women at risk. We need protecting from them.

I’m not sure why you think that the fact that female-to-males additionally develop male pattern criminality, takes anything away from the fact that all bio-makes are dangerous.

Incidentally, about 1% of transgender people commit suicide. This is significantly less than the 6% of bio males who are rapists.

I focus on victims of sex crimes and violence which are overwhelmingly WOMEN, not coddling the feelings of mentally ill bio-males. Do you really think that pretending these males are harmless females will solve their extensive mental health problems?

I don’t care about misgendering, it’s sailed past you, but I was drawing attention your hypocrisy by highlighting your gender assumptions.

 

[jewelkitty]

A group of people insisting their rights are being erased because another group is being allowed the same basic rights they have? This sounds awfully familiar. I can’t quite put my finger on it but as a black person it just seems really really really familiar....

How would you feel if white people started saying they "identify" as black, started doing blackface and invading your spaces?
Or another way of looking at it, that the words white and black became meaningless, or banned words, and language could not be used to differentiate you and your struggles from white people and their privilege?
And yet all of this was seen as white people finally getting the rights they deserve, or seen as brave, courageous, woke and progressive?

 

[GossipMongoose]

On the other hand, a case of a haemaprnodite born with both sets of genitalia but a strong certainty they are a woman, suggests gender is at least partially a mental state as much as a physical one. Now I know it’s incredibly rare, and that usually one set of genitals will be the more developed ‘dominant’ ones, but I don’t think that matters. The point is, that it is possible in nature for a human to be born with both. Which tells us there is more to defining gender than genitals. many of us don’t consider it because if your head tells you you’re a woman and your eyes do when you look down, you have no reason to. But people who don’t have this alignment can be found throughout history. It’s always happened and is not all that rare. The haemphrodite example I think makes it easier to conceive, if you haven’t experienced it yourself.

Intersex is totally different from trans. One is a vanishingly rare medical condition. A developmental abnormality. The other is a psychological issue. Don’t muddy the waters by trying to conflate the two.

Btw, it’s ‘hermaphrodite’.
( edited as I buggered up the quote)

There are also huge problems around things like single sex hospital wards. The NHS is turning itself inside out to be ‘inclusive’ and unfortunately it is throwing the baby out with the bath water in the process. For years single sex wards have been fought for and worked towards as a safeguarding and privacy and dignity measure. Now this is being thrown out as we are to allow male bodied (including male hormoned) people on female wards. Where women are at their most vulnerable.

Now I’m aware that not every man poses a risk and these male bodied people may have always been meek and mild in their daily life. However, illness, infection, medication, dehydration etc can cause confusion and sudden behavioural changes in patients (hyper sexualised, verbal or physical aggression etc). It’s not the fault of the patient but they pose a risk to themselves and others on the ward.

Or maybe one or more of the women on the ward have worries about men (previous DV, sexual violence or other harassment) and wouldn’t feel safe with a male on the ward? Why does the trans person’s rights trump theirs?

Don’t even get me started on prisons and the number of men ‘identifying’ their way out of male prisons and into women’s prisons where they can access hundreds of vulnerable women.

It is a disgrace and we are sleepwalking into it.