Gender discussions

[RosePetals]

I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.

Sorry you didn't find the resources good enough, perhaps you should invest your own time into looking for an article as unfortunately I don't have the time to go searching for something that meets your criteria. It's not a simple issue so I'm not sure if there is going to be a simplistic article on it. I'm also hesitant to spend time on it as I believe you will find an excuse to dismiss any and all resources people provide.

I this this article, while it doesn't delve into precise details and stats, is a good balanced view : https://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward

Edit to add: I'm also wondering whether you're open at the moment to exploring other view points, perhaps put exploring further research on hold now until you're in the right headspace to really try to understand the alternative view - which I actually think in some places is very similar to your own.

 

[Mselvista]

Well you pointed out "I'm a woman" so I was simply apologising for any confusion. Again, it was you who felt the need to bring it up and clarify it

I'm not confused so no need to apologise.

I mentioned that I'm a woman because you said "people like [me] are silencing women".
So women are silencing women?
Now I *am* confused.

Sorry you didn't find the resources good enough

I have not said anything about the quality of the resources linked.
If someone asked me about my views on a current news story and I gave them all of that day's papers and said there you are, would you think I was expressing my views clearly or would you think I was wasting your time? I doubt you would think I was being
I have been told gc feminism is not transphobic. I disagree. If you wish to show me that I am wrong it may be helpful to your argument to give me the name of a gc activist who you agree with or who has influenced your thinking.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I'm not confused so no need to apologise.

I mentioned that I'm a woman because you said "people like [me] are silencing women".
So women are silencing women?
Now I *am* confused.

Yes, women on the GC side are afraid to speak up because of people - men and women- deeming them bigots, terf, transphobes, being accused of demonising trans people, etc etc. I can't make it any clearer than that

Interestingly enough, you honed in on a tiny part of my reply to you and ignored everything else. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think it's okay to moderate a thread and scold others for bringing this up on an influencer thread while you then go on to the very same thing yourself. Even after people had the decency to apologise to you.

To conclude Melvista, I have absolutely no interest in engaging with you any further. And you were so rude about the poster who took the time to furnish you with links you asked for.

 

[Mselvista]

I this this article, while it doesn't delve into precise details and stats, is a good balanced view : https://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/blog/sex-and-gender-identity-finding-a-way-forward

Edit to add: I'm also wondering whether you're open at the moment to exploring other view points, perhaps put exploring further research on hold now until you're in the right headspace to really try to understand the alternative view - which I actually think in some places is very similar to your own.

I'll read it, thanks.
I have already shown I am will to do research. I found 26 mentions of "women" on the Body Shop website.
I found Hackney Council E&D policy which lists sex as a protected characteristic.
I've found a transcript of Kristina Jayne Harrison's Women's Place talk.
I've established that D Muscato is not Canadian or resident in Canada and did not film himself in a women's refuge.
I have tried to find the original source for stuff discussed here.
I do this normally before sharing stuff I agree with or which aligns with my views before posting on FB or Twitter. I'm not treating the stuff shared here by "gender critics" to special scrutiny. With the prevalence of misinformation on social media, I like to check stuff myself. I consider it to be acting responsibly by trying to ensure I am not adding to the spread of inaccurate information.

 

[RosePetals]

If someone asked me about my views on a current news story and I gave them all of that day's papers and said there you are, would you think I was expressing my views clearly or would you think I was wasting your time? I doubt you would think I was being
I have been told gc feminism is not transphobic. I disagree. If you wish to show me that I am wrong it may be helpful to your argument to give me the name of a gc activist who you agree with or who has influenced your thinking.

Apologies, I thought you wanted articles and facts about why some people have the views they do - hence the links. so for me it would be something more along the lines of someone asking why it's black lives matter not all lives matter, and sending them links to info about police brutality, systematic racism etc which would explain why I believe in BLM.

Unfortunately I wasn't really influenced by any particular person it's ore a combination of lived experience and statistics. I guess off the top of my head Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie might be a good example?

It's something more where I see something kicking off on Twitter, or on the news, or just generally in day to day life and I decide to look into. For example I looked into the transwoman in sports debate after Nicola Adams tweeted about it, I follow her on Twitter and thought hmm what's this about then, and looked into it more. It's not like I follow a load of gc figureheads, or really know of any.

I'm also part of the LGBT network in my workplace so things occasionally some up there too which has helped educate me and shape my views.

You do come across a bit like you're being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I can't quite understand what you want so will give up on trying, however if someone else understands better they might be willing to take the time to find something. However, if there is a particular type of article you're looking for you're probably best off looking yourself as you'll be the only one who truly knows what you're looking for.

Edit: Interestingly I still get the below result when typing women into the body shop website search bar "We found 0 results for "women'', but we found 64 results for "men". I think they'll most likely soon get 0 results for men too once they remove all the gender stereo typing nonsense, and also adapt their ranges to account for the fact that not all face shavers are men.

 

[Podcat]

I can not reply to every point made. I do have other things to do.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.

I'm still unsure how we're defining transphobic, but when I first started reading up about all this I found Rebecca Reilly Cooper's work useful (there is a lot there so probs not one to skim read):

Trans issues and gender identity

19. While we will all experience unease and discomfort living under the constraints of gender to a greater or lesser degree, some persons experience this especially intensely and acutely, to the ex…

sexandgenderintro.com

I mostly agree with this Guardian editorial (the guardian often posts comment pieces for both sides and this editorial was then countered by a number of its writers inc Owen Jones)

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide?

 

[Mselvista]

Interestingly enough, you honed in on a tiny part of my reply to you and ignored everything else. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think it's okay to moderate a thread and scold others for bringing this up on an influencer thread while you then go on to the very same thing yourself. Even after people had the decency to apologise to you.

I responded as I read your reply. I wanted to answer that part before reading the rest.

Commenting that a thread on Sali Hughes is maybe not the place for a long post which nearly fills my phone screen is not moderating the thread.

I didn't suggest any reference to the subject should be completely verboten.

Anyway I don't think my comments on the SH thread are the reason you take issue with me.

Hatred, prejudice or discrimination of transgender or transsexual people because of they are trans?
Is there another definition?

 

[HarderFaster]

Danielle Muscato did indeed film herself at a women's shelter (interested to note that you refer to her as "himself"). As I said, my bad for wrongly thinking that it was in Canada, but nonetheless she uploaded this to YouTube:

Whether it happened in Canada or the USA, if you genuinely believe that it would be ok for UK shelters to turn away teenage boys who arrived with their mothers, but allow this person to be in the space, that's fine. It's not about "passing", but it's about a double standard that reforms to the GRA would exacerbate.

You are indeed being deliberately obtuse and selectively picking on what you consider to be inconsistencies. But I'm actively ignoring this thread now, as opposed to unfollowing it, and will be doing the same with your posts.

It's a shame because I was really learning from other posters who ostensibly share your stance on this topic.

 

[Mselvista]

why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lot

Danielle Muscato did indeed film herself at a women's shelter (interested to note that you refer to her as "himself"). As I said, my bad for wrongly thinking that it was in Canada, but nonetheless she uploaded this to YouTube:

Whether it happened in Canada or the USA, if you genuinely believe that it would be ok for UK shelters to turn away teenage boys who arrived with their mothers, but allow this person to be in the space, that's fine. It's not about "passing", but it's about a double standard that reforms to the GRA would exacerbate.

You are indeed being deliberately obtuse and selectively picking on what you consider to be inconsistencies. But I'm actively ignoring this thread now, as opposed to unfollowing it, and will be doing the same with your posts.

It's a shame because I was really learning from other posters who ostensibly share your stance on this topic.

I've watched the video - it's described as a homeless shelter. That is not the same thing as a women's refuge.

 

[PoleStar]

I can not reply to every point made. I do have other things to do.
I asked for a link to an article laying out gc feminism, gc 101 if you like. I got a document dump worthy of Wikileaks.
Apart from Kristina Jayne Harrison no one has recommended a gc feminist who they think it might be helpful for me to read. (I have not yet watched the video).
I have said that I think "gender criticism" is a euphemism for transphobic ideas. I have been told I am wrong about this. I am willing to accept that I may be wrong and have asked for an article which sets out gc beliefs which is not written by a transphobic person. Or a reccomendation of a gc activist who is not transphobic - I'll then take a look at their work.


I don't know what you're apologising for here.

Haha, I do too and I'm sure we all do. How about you spend your own time and energy searching for the resources YOU want instead of riding others' coattails?? Please stop disnissing other people's thoughts and opinions, stop attaching rude and unwarranted labels to other people and stop trying to trip other people up. I find your posts obtuse and I wonder if you are like this in real life and face to face conversation? Your posts seem designed to annoy and wind up other people, presumably you derive some sort of strange satisfaction in the process otherwise why carry on? Truly mystifying.

 

[Mselvista]

I've found the Women's Place Uk page. It's about Stonwall campaigning to remove single sex exemptions.
There is no reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic.

Evidence of calls to remove single sex exemptions from Equality Act - Woman's Place UK

Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services.

womansplaceuk.org

Haha, I do too and I'm sure we all do. How about you spend your own time and energy searching for the resources YOU want instead of riding others' coattails??

Posts here have included screenshots of Twitter accouny as sources for informstion. Have you suggested that posters citing such evidence should do *their* own research and stop "riding others' coattails"?

As I have said I understand that gc activists have firmly held beliefs. I think that some of those beliefs are based on myths. I also think that gc orthodoxy frightens women unnecessarily and makes life more difficult for trans people.

I have said that I think women are being lied to about improvements in trans people's lives putting them (women) at risk.
A poster gave some examples to counter this and illustrate that women are not being lied to. One dud not say what was claimed (the Stonewall one), neither did a page on the Women's Place Uk site I was referred to.
The next example was incorrect- Hackney Council have not removed sex as a protected characteristic (how could they? It's laid down in legislation).
The other info re Danish prisons made no reference to trans people, self id etc. It was about women being sexually assaulted in mixed prisons. It was nothing to do with trans inmates.

Women are scared of trans women because of gc rhetoric. Trans people are scared because of the hostile environment which is one consequence of gc rhetoric.

 

[PoleStar]

I've found the Women's Place Uk page. It's about Stonwall campaigning to remove single sex exemptions.
There is no reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic.

Evidence of calls to remove single sex exemptions from Equality Act - Woman's Place UK

Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services.

womansplaceuk.org

Posts here have included screenshots of Twitter accouny as sources for informstion. Have you suggested that posters citing such evidence should do *their* own research and stop "riding others' coattails"?

As I have said I understand that gc activists have firmly held beliefs. I think that some of those beliefs are based on myths. I also think that gc orthodoxy frightens women unnecessarily and makes life more difficult for trans people.

I have said that I think women are being lied to about improvements in trans people's lives putting them (women) at risk.
A poster gave some examples to counter this and illustrate that women are not being lied to. One dud not say what was claimed (the Stonewall one), neither did a page on the Women's Place Uk site I was referred to.
The next example was incorrect- Hackney Council have not removed sex as a protected characteristic (how could they? It's laid down in legislation).
The other info re Danish prisons made no reference to trans people, self id etc. It was about women being sexually assaulted in mixed prisons. It was nothing to do with trans inmates.

Women are scared of trans women because of gc rhetoric. Trans people are scared because of the hostile environment which is one consequence of gc rhetoric.

Oh put a sock in it for Pete's sake!! You really are determined to try and undermine everyone aren't you, grow up.

 

[kat.becs]

Im not reading back I imagine I’ll get pissed so this likely isn’t relevant to current topic but I came across this on Twitter.

Love Angela Davis

 

[gukkies]

Im not reading back I imagine I’ll get pissed so this likely isn’t relevant to current topic but I came across this on Twitter.


Love Angela Davis

"Black trans women constitute the target of racist violence more consistently than any other community. We're talking about state violence, we're talking about individual violence, stranger violence, intimate violence. So if we want to develop intersectional perspective, the trans community is showing us the way..... And I don't think we would be where we are today, encouraging ever larger numbers of people to think within an abolitionist train, had not the trans community taught us that it is possible to effectively challenge that which is considered the very foundation of our sense of normalcy. So if it is possible to challenge the gender binary, then we can certainly, effectively, resist prisons, and jails, and police."

Amazing woman and lifetime activist. Amazing perspective. She uses her voice to fight the important battles, highlighting the significance of positively making trans people the centre of a lot of politics. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Podcat]

I've found the Women's Place Uk page. It's about Stonwall campaigning to remove single sex exemptions.
There is no reference to removing sex as a protected characteristic.

Evidence of calls to remove single sex exemptions from Equality Act - Woman's Place UK

Violence against women and sex discrimination still exist. Women need reserved places, separate spaces and distinct services.

womansplaceuk.org

Posts here have included screenshots of Twitter accouny as sources for informstion. Have you suggested that posters citing such evidence should do *their* own research and stop "riding others' coattails"?

As I have said I understand that gc activists have firmly held beliefs. I think that some of those beliefs are based on myths. I also think that gc orthodoxy frightens women unnecessarily and makes life more difficult for trans people.

I have said that I think women are being lied to about improvements in trans people's lives putting them (women) at risk.
A poster gave some examples to counter this and illustrate that women are not being lied to. One dud not say what was claimed (the Stonewall one), neither did a page on the Women's Place Uk site I was referred to.
The next example was incorrect- Hackney Council have not removed sex as a protected characteristic (how could they? It's laid down in legislation).
The other info re Danish prisons made no reference to trans people, self id etc. It was about women being sexually assaulted in mixed prisons. It was nothing to do with trans inmates.

Women are scared of trans women because of gc rhetoric. Trans people are scared because of the hostile environment which is one consequence of gc rhetoric.

OK, you're right about the protected characteristic, my mistake. But it did prove lobbying for the removal of single sex exemptions, I assume you agree with that as you've not mentioned it? I was also not intending to imply Hackney Council had removed sex as a protected characteristic, but that someone there had been influenced to change the wording rather than quote the law. (I also don't necessarily mean directly influenced, but maybe just by listening to the debate that places more importance on gender identity rather than sex.)

I posted tweets not as evidence but because they are what I had to hand as things I have seen in the last few days. There are easily-found articles exploring the rise of gender neutral toilets in schools and I posted a link to the girl that successfully challenged the council.

Again, I am not trying to say that trans women are a danger to cis women. My problem is with policy being rushed through.
Most GC feminists agree that gender dysphoria is real, sex change treatment is the best solution for some but not all, trans people be referred to how they wish and should not face discrimination for being trans.

I've attached a screenshot from the guidance from next year's census. This is the sort of thing I'm not sure about, I think in the instances where sex needs recording it should be accurate. The census exists for policy and demographic information and should be factual.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

From Twitter: a trans man speaking up for reality. He is not of an older age going by his photo so it can't be blamed on a "generational" thing

 

[kat.becs]

From Twitter: a trans man speaking up for reality. He is not of an older age going by his photo so it can't be blamed on a "generational" thing

I mean that’s not the same for every trans person. He’s obviously happy to say he’s female but many are not.

I don’t think ANY trans person doesn’t know they’re biologically not the gender they now identify as but my son calls himself a boy and says he’s a boy and plenty of transgender women call themselves women, just as plenty of transgender men call themselves men. Doesn’t mean they don’t know they weren’t born that way. They wouldn’t have transitioned otherwise.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I mean that’s not the same for every trans person. He’s obviously happy to say he’s female but many are not.

I don’t think ANY trans person doesn’t know they’re biologically not the gender they now identify as but my son calls himself a boy and says he’s a boy and plenty of transgender women call themselves women, just as plenty of transgender men call themselves men. Doesn’t mean they don’t know they weren’t born that way. They wouldn’t have transitioned otherwise.

I get that and trans people aren't one homogenous group. I saw someone say once that it's up to trans people to decide what constitutes transphobia. So if some trans people are saying that they don't consider it transphobic to not class themselves as the same as a biological male/ female (as appropriate), is that considered transphobic?

 

[kat.becs]

I get that and trans people aren't one homogenous group. I saw someone say once that it's up to trans people to decide what constitutes transphobia. So if some trans people are saying that they don't consider it transphobic to not class themselves as the same as a biological male/ female (as appropriate), is that considered transphobic?

Im tired and I've read that question 5 times and I think I've got the gist of what you're asking but I could be wrong lol

I don't think it's transphobic. Transwomen are women but they also know they're not the same as biological women. Just because they wish to be referred to as women doesn't mean they aren't aware that they are not the same. If there are transwomen out there who refer to themselves as men who present female then that's their choice but from what I understand the majority consider themselves women because they are. They are, as someone used the term previously in this thread, a 'subcategory' of the gender and not the same as biological women, but they know and are aware of that.

 

[soberpanda]

Im not reading back I imagine I’ll get pissed so this likely isn’t relevant to current topic but I came across this on Twitter.

Love Angela Davis

amazing woman. She spoke about this perfectly.