Gender discussions

[maytoseptember]

If a trans woman uses a female bathroom, no issues. She will have been through a full journey where she is and if she’s transitioned and is living as a woman, she’s a woman in my view.

Depends what you mean by “full journey”. Very few transwomen have genital surgery - and I don’t blame them, because it is extreme and the recovery is long and complications are common.

I think it’s a common misconception that the definition of “transwoman” involves hormones and surgery when it often doesn’t.

 

[Podcat]

Idk. This thread seems to be majorly one sided and I’ve disagreed with at least 70% of comments made and to be honest, I have found some extremely unfair and nearing transphobic. I’ve not spoke up because like I said it’s very one sided and while I’m not ‘afraid’ I know most would disagree and I cba with confrontation

I agree with this, I hate confrontation too. I may have some reservations about policy but I think it's so important to talk about this respectfully. This won't be resolved by people on the Internet going "you're transphobic!", "well you're misogynistic!"

I do think there should be some space for people to learn and if you're new to all this it can take a while to get used to all the terms and figure out what's insensitive and what's outright offensive.

 

[maytoseptember]

And a unisex third space is good enough but it also comes with risks for trans people.

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

 

[kat.becs]

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

I never said they didn't deserve that, though?

But we can't also avoid the fact that unisex spaces can be dangerous for others too. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist or that it's not the best option but it doesn't come without risks either. We can be worried about both.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

Exactly. If a trans person does not feel safe in a male toilet, can they not accept why women might not feel safe with a male bodied person in ours? Why is no one making demands of men to make toilets safer places?

And furthermore, how have drag queens and transvestites managed all these years?

 

[kat.becs]

It actually is a black and white issue.

Well we can agree to strongly disagree about it being black and white. It's not at all. Unisex bathrooms are the obvious answer but they also carry risk for those who use them. For anyone, not just trans people. Hence, not B&W.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Well we can agree to strongly disagree about it being black and white. It's not at all. Unisex bathrooms are the obvious answer but they also carry risk for those who use them. For anyone, not just trans people. Hence, not B&W.

I wasn't referring to the bathrooms when I was saying it was black and white. It's black and white that the men in the video I posted are not women

 

[kat.becs]

I wasn't referring to the bathrooms when I was saying it was black and white. It's black and white that the men in the video I posted are not women

Okay but I never said that was black and white at all.

 

[mindlessness]

I never said they didn't deserve that, though?

But we can't also avoid the fact that unisex spaces can be dangerous for others too. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist or that it's not the best option but it doesn't come without risks either. We can be worried about both.

This made me think about what the threat really is when we talk about safe spaces - male violence.

Against trans men and trans women, against children, and against biological/‘cis’ women. Heck, against other men too.

It all just sucks.

 

[jewelkitty]

I’m happy to detail my viewpoint in relation to trans people:

Fully supportive of trans people living as opposite sex, transitioning (hormonal/physical) and working towards living their life in a form that makes them happy.

I will never/have never, ever use/d slurs like “he she” “it” (indeed I have such a deep ingrained understanding that “IT” = Rude thay I cannot deal with people choosing this as a pronoun. I truly struggle with this one!). If someone wishes to be he/she and change their name to Dave/Chelsea etc. I will call them their chosen name with no question.

The rights under gender recognition I support strongly and protection from discrimination in health/education/housing /employment etc etc.

If a trans woman uses a female bathroom, no issues. She will have been through a full journey where she is and if she’s transitioned and is living as a woman, she’s a woman in my view.

However, where I have been struggling with is the new era of “woke” belief on twitter and the blind support for reducing criteria to access gender recognition certificates. Especially when it’s on a self identification basis with limited/little input from medical professionals. If this results in even a tiny % risk to women (inc trans) and girls safety and security being at risk then I cannot support this.

Yes, this is a very murky area with nuance and so many ethical dilemmas. Obviously I (and most others I would assume) do not want trans people to suffer more turmoil, I don’t want trans suicide rates to increase. I want a world where trans can feel accepted and safe. But I also want a world where women and girls safety and hard fought for protections and safe spaces (i.e women’s shelters) are recognised and maintained. I also feel like this mantra of everyone having to accept a narrative, without question, is dangerous. What about critical thought? What about assessing situations and listening to our instincts / voice inside us that tries to reason and explain the unknown?

In today’s world I see the term “transphobic” and “hate” hurled around (not by you as you have been great in opposing and countering viewpoints) but it’s easy for a small fringe of any movement to dominate. I truly believe this does more harm than good as it is likely to confirm potential prejudice in people rather than challenge them.

I don’t have the answers. I don’t think anyone does. One thing I know is I am personally not transphobic and I’m not a radical feminist but I do feel there is real safeguarding issues that need wider discussion before any amendment to GRA / self certifying. And the folk screaming down anyone who doesn’t conform to their group think is not doing the overall cause any good. IMO.

Very well said, you summed up my point of view too.

 

[kat.becs]

This made me think about what the threat really is when we talk about safe spaces - male violence.

Against trans men and trans women, against children, and against biological/‘cis’ women. Heck, against other men too.

It all just sucks.

Exactly! It all sucks. That's why I don't feel there's 'one' right answer to it all. Whatever we do, somebody is at risk.

Again I'm not saying unisex places/bathrooms aren't the most logical answer - but we can also acknowledge the fact that it comes with risks too. I see some people completely denying that fact.

My son hasn't experienced violence, per se, (despite altercations at school ) but has experienced verbal attacks from both sexes, but the majority that he has experienced have been from men.

 

[bubbletea123]

Wow, I have 7 pages to catch up on. Anyway, I will NEVER refer to myself as a "cis woman." I am a WOMAN. Stop putting us into a subcategory.

 

[Libertine1975]

Wow, I have 7 pages to catch up on. Anyway, I will NEVER refer to myself as a "cis woman." I am a WOMAN. Stop putting us into a subcategory.

I prefer cis women to a mensturstor! But I agree, I use the term in this thread for clarity not because I like the term.

 

[PoleStar]

I think we do need to be careful not to demonise men in these discussions, as the majority of men are decent people. Unfortunately, as is usually the case it is a minority who spoil things for the majority. Whilst I've received both physical and verbal abuse from men, I still know that the majority are decent people. My husband is a crime analyst and works for a large English police force and he said a very rough ballpark figure for the number of men in the general population who are responsible for violent crime against the person is less than 1%.

 

[maytoseptember]

This made me think about what the threat really is when we talk about safe spaces - male violence.

Amen to that. Scan through BBC news (or any other news outlet of your choice ) and see the proportion of stories that have male violence at their root. Once you start noticing it, you can’t stop.

 

[kat.becs]

I prefer cis women to a mensturstor! But I agree, I use the term in this thread for clarity not because I like the term.

thats just it - women are women and people only use ciswoman/cismale/cisgender etc when it's appropriate within context. I don't want to be called ciswoman all the time either despite not being against the term - it just sounds odd, but when discussing someone who is trans vs someone who isn't, I'll use it because it's useful for clarity.

 

[maytoseptember]

I think we do need to be careful not to demonise men in these discussions, as the majority of men are decent people. Unfortunately, as is usually the case it is a minority who spoil things for the majority. Whilst I've received both physical and verbal abuse from men, I still know that the majority are decent people. My husband is a crime analyst and works for a large English police force and he said a very rough ballpark figure for the number of men in the general population who are responsible for violent crime against the person is less than 1%.

Come on, no need to derail with NAMALT. We all know there are scores of decent men in the world. But that doesn’t negate the fact that men as a class are a danger to women as a class.

 

[PoleStar]

Come on, no need to derail with NAMALT. We all know there are scores of decent men in the world. But that doesn’t negate the fact that men as a class are a danger to women as a class.

Excuse me?? I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[maytoseptember]

NAMALT = Not All Men Are Like That.

Edit: it grinds my gears when having a discussion about male violence and someone always pipes up to remind everyone that lots of men are lovely, because god forbid we hurt their feelings by talking about male violence.

 

[Libertine1975]

thats just it - women are women and people only use ciswoman/cismale/cisgender etc when it's appropriate within context. I don't want to be called ciswoman all the time either despite not being against the term - it just sounds odd, but when discussing someone who is trans vs someone who isn't, I'll use it because it's useful for clarity.

Just wanted to thank you for sharing your experiences with your son. You sound like a great parent who is doing all they can to support him and get him the help he needs going through this. I hope he is able to get to a point where he is able to live the way he wants and has a full and happy life