Gender discussions

[SqualorVictoria]

Check this out. Again, this proves this issue is against women. Utter misogyny is at the core of the modern trans ideology.

 

[Halloumifries45]

Just wanted to post some self reflective ramblings because I’m still reading and formulating my own opinions on this subject so I don’t want to make sweeping statements just yet

But in terms of myself, I feel like gender is a load of bollocks? I was born female, haven’t really questioned it before. I present as a woman because women’s clothes fit better because I’m petite. I don’t wear make up, or style my hair, and rarely wear particularly girly clothes. My interests are gender neutral. Basically I’m trying to say I’m not ‘feminine’ at all in society’s limited sense of the word

Also, I’m not especially masculine and I don’t want to be a man. And declaring myself agender/gender fluid (or whatever term) just seems pointless and I’d hate the attention/questions etc

I did a Google search to find out how to know if you’re cisgender and what seemed to crop up a lot was basically ‘feeling comfortable with your assigned sex’. Do most women feel comfortable with their sex??? Seriously, because even pushing my negative experiences aside, there’s my friends experiences, statistics and research, the whole way women are socialised, our biology meaning we generally suffer more pain. I cannot imagine being comfortable as a female. By this definition, do most women have ‘gender dysphoria’?

Just thinking out loud to be honest

If I was a kid growing up today I think I would’ve been transgender and be on the hormones already! I grew up playing football, hated wearing dresses or makeup, always had messy hair and to be quite honest, I didn’t have any female friends but that wasn’t a problem back then (albeit only 15 years ago). I refused to wear any clothes from the girls section cos I just felt more comfortable in football shirts, joggers and trainers and that was that but nowadays I completely agree it has been massively overblown. If you do anything remotely masculine you are therefore not regarded as a woman anymore and vulnerable young children are now lead to believe that there must be this “misalignment” between their brain and their body and it’s so so harmful it’s actually reversing the old fashioned gender stereotypes women have fought for years to reverse!! I actually think we’re going backwards instead of forwards in society in acceptance of people for who they are and I wouldn’t want my future daughters to grow up in this society. Call me a trans-medicalist but I truly believe that wether you were born a man or a woman you should be free to be as masculine or feminine as you want without feeling the need to change yourself and people who are transgender have a genuine condition where they feel strong dysphoria and distress against their own body which can only be relived by surgery! Sorry for the long rant but I completely understand what you’re saying

 

[jewelkitty]

I kind of feel woman are losing their own group identity because we have to be inclusive of the trans and non-binary community.

Yep, yet men still get to hold onto their group identity with a firm grip.
Notice how when somewhere introduces unisex toilets, it's nearly always the women's toilet that has to go. So you have a men's toilet and a gender-neutral toilet. So where are the toilets for women only? The group who are at most risk. Men do not need their own toilet.

 

[mindlessness]

I believe trans people deserve to live their lives safely and define themselves as they wish. But I also believe that as a woman I am entitled to define myself as I wish after centuries where my foremothers didn’t get the chance. Many of my Mum’s close friends are Lesbians and I grew up with a myriad of different examples of what being a woman looked like in practice - both in physical appearance, career choices, injustices faced, family structure etc. They taught me in word and deed that gender stereotypes are damaging.

So, I then struggle with the idea that I need to expand my own definition of womanhood (in part developed thanks to that generation of Women making me proud to be one) to accomodate biological men who are defining themselves as women and then often exacerbating gender stereotypes in the process.


It’s comforting to see others here who think similarly. I would never share this on IG or FB, it would cause arguments with people I care about I’m unwilling to have. Not because I think I’m wrong, but because I think it could irreparably damage friendships. It’s such a divisive issue now.

 

[bubbletea123]

So someone that I followed on Twitter saying that "x-amount of my followers are still following JK Rowling. Please either unfollow me before I unfollow you." Aaaanyway, today, I checked that app that shows you who unfollowed you recently and they had unfollowed me and it says I was not following them anymore. They must have blocked then unblocked me as that is the only way to get someone to unfollow you on Twitter. What bizarre behaviour. Imagine unfollowing someone because they follow a person whose views you disagree with - I mean, JK Rowling does not have extreme views in my mind.

Someone else I follow tweeted that they had an "awkward chat" with one of their closest, oldest friends about JK Rowling. She then said they are going to talk about it on their next Zoom chat but she is worried as her friend's attitude is that "we are never going to agree on this" which "isn't a very hopeful starting point." And that if she can't change her friend's mind then that is a red line for her.

WHO CARES. Why aren't people allowed to have differing opinions anymore? Are people ok?

 

[openbook1]

Trans rights should not come at the cost of women’s fragile gains

Too often, gender neutrality is accomplished by neutralising services or analyses centred on women, writes Sarah Ditum, a journalist

www.economist.com

In June Cancer Research UK, a charity, tweeted: “Cervical screening (or the smear test) is relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix.” The odd phrasing—“everyone with a cervix” rather than “women”—was not accidental.


It is notable that Cancer Research UK did not test its “inclusive” approach with a male-specific cancer. Its campaign messages about prostate and testicular cancer address “men”, rather than “everyone with a prostate” or “everyone with testicles”.

There is a word for a situation where women talking about female bodies is considered impermissibly antisocial, where describing the consequences of sexism for women is systematically impeded, where resources for women are redistributed to male users while resources for men are left in male hands, and where “male” and “female” are rigidly associated with masculinity and femininity. That word is not “progressive”, “liberal” or any of the other terms usually associated with trans activism. The word is misogyny. Trans rights should not come at the cost of women’s fragile gains.

Husband is mad at me as I got upset by this and he said I am being aggressive about it. Oh my God. I am going to lose my shit.

 

[RosePetals]

So campaign to help those affected in Africa and Asia.

But, no, making life more difficult for trans people, women especially, is more important to some uk feminists atm.

It's not just woman in Africa and Asia though, it's woman globally including the UK.

As an African woman who lives in the UK and is a feminist yes this is something I'm actively campaigning to help change, amongst other feminist topics including the preservation of single sex spaces. For what it's worth I'm also campaigning with BLM, and for more mental health funding, along with early eating disorder intervention. I am also part of my workplace's (a council) LBGT network to help focus on LGBT centric issues across our local area, which includes organising trans supporting events such as trans day of remembrance (as well as other more general LGBT related things - most recently before lockdown we focussed on LGBT author representation in libraries). On top of that I also volunteer for a dog shelter and advocate against puppy farms. Unbelievable that people can care about multiple problems at once isn't it?

I'm also not working to make life more difficult for trans woman

What a dismissive response

 

[RosePetals]

I think it says it all that it's always a focus on women, women need a new name, women need to share spaces, women need to give up sport etc etc.

Nothing can ever be a women's issue - you talk about domestic violence or eating disorders for example and you immediately get jumped on with "women can be abusive too" "men suffer eating disorders too", but when it comes to suicide awareness no one points out that women commit suicide too.

Similarly when it comes to international women's day there's a heavy emphasis on transwomen, there's next to no transmen emphasis on international men's day.

It's male privilege to believe biological sex "doesn't exist" or doesn't matter.

Of course there are genuinely transphobic people but for myself and many other feminists this isn't about genuine transpeople, who I agree should be free to live their lives; this is about creating legal loopholes for opportunistic men wanting to take advantage of women.

 

[rosemarina]

Cis is absolutely not a “neutral, non-loaded term”. It’s not.

 

[chocolate choux]

Just wanted to post some self reflective ramblings because I’m still reading and formulating my own opinions on this subject so I don’t want to make sweeping statements just yet

But in terms of myself, I feel like gender is a load of bollocks? I was born female, haven’t really questioned it before. I present as a woman because women’s clothes fit better because I’m petite. I don’t wear make up, or style my hair, and rarely wear particularly girly clothes. My interests are gender neutral. Basically I’m trying to say I’m not ‘feminine’ at all in society’s limited sense of the word

Also, I’m not especially masculine and I don’t want to be a man. And declaring myself agender/gender fluid (or whatever term) just seems pointless and I’d hate the attention/questions etc

I did a Google search to find out how to know if you’re cisgender and what seemed to crop up a lot was basically ‘feeling comfortable with your assigned sex’. Do most women feel comfortable with their sex??? Seriously, because even pushing my negative experiences aside, there’s my friends experiences, statistics and research, the whole way women are socialised, our biology meaning we generally suffer more pain. I cannot imagine being comfortable as a female. By this definition, do most women have ‘gender dysphoria’?

Just thinking out loud to be honest

 

[Meh]

The phrase I used was "the language of transphobia".
JKR said in her piece that she had read widely on this issue and sought to present herself as a neutral outsider who had read stuff from "both sides".
However the language she used was a red flag that this was not the case.

If you read FB post and the poster repeatedly said "moslem" instead of muslim would that set of alarm bells? Their defence would be that it is a correct alternative traditional spelling. If you suggested they were racist they may say "Islam isn't a race". I have only seen racists insist on using the term "moslem". If they insisted they weren't racist I think oh I got it wrong . I don't think that racists get to self define - someone saying they are not racist is not going to persuade.

Similarly someone saying "I'm not transphobic but..." does not mean I think that person could not possibly be transphobic.

As for the language - I haven't got the blog to hand but JKR's repeated references to trans activists (posting on twitter, especially posting offensive insults is not activism) and her saying "biological" and "natal" women. This is not neutral language. It is the language of "gender critism" aka transphobia. The term Rowling wants is cis. Cisgender is in the OED. The refusal to use a neutral non loaded term is, again, to me indicate that JKR has being read transphobic material.

Comments on "people who menstruate" are dishonest. How often have you seen that or similar terms in the wild? The phrase is used, as I'm sure you all know, to be inclusive. What should it be replaced by? Women? But we know not all women menstruate so discussion of, for example medical research relating to those who menstruate then being relabelled as about women would be wrong and the conclusions would be wrong. Do you think it should be replaced by "women who menstruate"? But that, as I am sure you know would not include trans men and non-binary folk, so again would be misleading and change the meaning re the group the research related to.

Some may think what I've said is absurd.
I think the idea that "terf" is a gendered insult used to silence women is absurd. "Shut up terf" is the equivalent of saying "fuck off racist". Many think you shouldnt "debate" racists. Many feel that there is no point debating "gender critical" feminists. Their views are legitimised by being deemed worthy of debate, those views are very entrenched and not open to change and you will end up exhausted, hsving wasted your time and possibly given platform to a trsnsphobe in the process.

Apologies for all the typos/wrong tenses used above - had only just woken up and didn't read it back before posting.

Can I ask a serious question here?

Why are we, as a society, all of a sudden hesitant to say “women” in reference to mensuration?

I understand that some FtM transgender may still have functioning female sex organs and thus have periods whilst identifying and appearing as male. Why does this require this use of, what I frankly find insulting, “people who menstruate”language. I am a woman in my 30s, I do not wish to be called CIS/bio/natal etc. Why can’t I just be a woman as I’ve been since I was born?

Surely this argument that “women” is not inclusive is tosh? Yes, some women do not have periods and at a certain age women stop having periods. They are still women though. Is this truly a group of women who are campaigning to have this changed?

This is the only “woke” subject I truly feel at odds with. I simply refuse to be known as “they” “it” “cis” or some thing that menstruates.

Where is my (and other women’s) right to be offended and triggered?

 

[Libertine1975]

It's no surprise I share different views than the majority in this thread, but having seen the video above, it reminded me of some things that have always bothered me.

I think a lot of the world outside of Twitter and so on don't have a total understanding of the trans community and what it means to be trans due to all of the... add-ons. I support and actively try to use my voice to help the community, and I listen to my trans friends to understand their struggles and to hear their voices. However, I find that the trans community it is often mocked by the idea that trans is an umbrella term for gender non-conforming and non-binary people. They are not the same. I know a lot of people online who identify as non-binary and go by either all pronouns or by they/them, etc, etc. I will always respect their pronouns and encourage them to identify and express themselves in whatever way makes them happy, but I have had trans friends express annoyance at them thinking they can speak on behalf of trans people as if they are trans themselves. I often find nb people trying to include themselves in the trans community... which the majority of my trans friends and peers find insulting, as to be non-binary is not to experience gender dysphoria, nor is it to have your biological sex not match your gender. While I know there are a handful of nb people who would say they experience gender dysphoria, I know the majority don't and that's where I've noticed a lot of tension from trans people who feel like their experiences and hardships are mocked and downplayed by others who may just feel like one gender or another one day, and then something else the next. For me personally, I do find that is more to do with self-expression, and from my understanding of the people around me, none of them seem to experience the genuine struggle and pain with their biology that trans people do.

I've seen many nb people insert themselves into the agony that trans people face, with their inner battles, but then their only "struggle" per what I've heard from many, is that they do not feel particularly feminine or masculine one day, or fluctuate between the two or feel androgynous. I find it belittles the people who struggle terribly with suicide, depression, body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria, etc., due to the sex they were born into.

Thank you for this. I think you sum things up well. There is a massive difference between someone who is trans and someone who says they are non binary or gender non conforming.

I have complete sympathy for trans people, what they go through must be so difficult both emotionally and physically. I have no problem with someone who is trans using, for example, the toilet they feel most suits their gender identity. In 'ladies' toilets there are only cubicles so everyone has privacy.

I think that there needs to be a careful balance between the rights of biological or cis women and trans women and I only say this as that's where I see the most conflict. I do think that this is because historically of how women have been treated and had to fight for their rights and that fact that ultimately women know they are weaker than men (even if that man has transitioned to become a woman). Statistically women are more likely to be attacked in their own homes than outside the home but that doesn't stop us feeling nervous walking home at night.

I don't think most biological or cis women would care if a trans woman was in the changing rooms if the trans women had the surgeries they needed to present as a women, I can understand that some biological or cis women would not feel comfortable if there was a trans women in the changing room who has not had bottom surgery, I understand this discomfort more for a biological or cis woman had been the victim of a sexual assault.

I don't think someone who believes that they are trans is 'mentally ill' but I do think that counselling and therapy need to be thoroughly used before they start to transition, I have read a number of reports the last few years of people who have transitions and are now transitioning back. I appreciate that this is a small percentage of people but I feel it is significant and the damage potentially catastrophic.

I don't really understand get non binary or gender non conforming...

To me gender non conforming is just you do or do not do something which is typical of your 'biological' gender for example a biological man wears a dress. I just consider this self expression.

I struggle more with non binary. I just don't understand it at all, there are two sexes you are one or the other. You might be biologically one but have gender dysmorphia as trans people do, but to be neither. I don't get it and I am trying to learn more about it to see if I can understand it more.

I think like most people who are on this thread I'm here because if the JK Rowling thing. I am in my early 30s and fairly to the left politically. I do find it offensive that in the headline I have been reduced to a person that mensturates. As someone said you wouldn't have an article calling biological men a person who ejaculates, a person who creates sperm.

I also don't understand with the people who say that biological sex doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist then surely there wouldn't be trans people...or possibly gay, lesbian, bi or pansexual people.

I completely accept people have the right to disagree with me and I am in no way an expert on these issues but I am trying to learn more about things and my views might change. The abuse JK Rowling has received on twitter was horrific and frankly undermines the view of people who disagree with her. I don't think her post was rude or abusive but the responses to it were to the extreme. Engage in discussion with people if you want to try and change their opinion, don't abuse them.

 

[Vee6]

God this is all so complicated. A week ago I would felt differently to how I feel since reading JKs essay.

I saw the outrage on twitter about her and everyone screaming that she was transphobic and saw some horrendous bullying, everyone on my feed was on her like a pack of wolves.
I thought omg what has she said. Then I read her essay and I can’t see anything transphobic there and I’m heart broken about how she’s been treated.

It’s led me down a rabbit hole the last few days looking into all sides. And now I am very worried about self IDing and the mermaids charity. And I’m totally for safe spaces for women. However I’m just as concerned about safe spaces for trans women against male violence. What’s the answer? I don’t know.

 

[maytoseptember]

In my younger years, I was definitely more left in politics, from about 18-22. I am now 28 and would say I am more centre, and a little right. Def not right wing but absolutely not left. Fed up of women being trampled on by the extreme left and extreme right. They are both as awful as each other.

I was definitely the same in my twenties. Because (and this is maybe embarrassing to admit) I believed that being a leftie was simply what good people chose to do.

I think that’s why so many younger women are firmly on the side of the trans activists, chanting TWAW and sex work is work. That’s what good people do, right? When I was in my twenties I would have been there too. Want to join our club, males? Sure, the more the merrier! I’m a good person!

It’s no coincidence that these young women have comparatively little life experience, haven’t had kids etc. Because if there’s an experience which teaches you an awful lot about being female in society, it’s pregnancy, childbirth and mothering (not wishing to disparage or exclude women who are childless by choice AND not by choice obvs). That’s when I discovered radical feminism... thanks, Mumsnet!

I’m 40 in a few months and have ran out of fucks to give. I will not tolerate women being thrown under the bus. Women sharing “be kind” memes with each other whereas men never do. “Be kind” just means “be quiet”. I’ve really had enough.

 

[Whaaaaat]

I have to say I find this a very conflicting issue.

I firmly believe that people should unashamedly be able to be who they are, and I would never intentionally make someone feel bad for the way they identify and would also respect their chosen pronouns etc.

In day to day life I would have no issues with transwomen in bathrooms, changing rooms etc.

It gets a bit murky to me when you get to prisons, refuges and sports.

Women generally go to prison for non violent offences whereas with men it is the complete opposite. The reality is a biological man is generally stronger than a woman. Therefore putting a biological man in a women’s prison does potentially put women at risk, and that doesn’t sit right with me. Same as a refuge.

But I also don’t think they should be shoved in with the men where they would be at risk - so is there a solution? I mean the easy answer would be a 3rd category of prison, but trans women don’t want this and you have to ask yourself why. If it was just about safety then they would have no issue - so is it about validation?

It’s a really hard balance because I don’t think anyone’s safety should be sacrificed for the safety of another person and everyone should have access to a safe space they feel comfortable. But the reality is that although not all men are rapists, all rapists are men.. and therefore women should be protected.

 

[Brightstar72]

Fragile femininity because a lot of people on here seem convinced that trans women are going to take away their womanhood. Crying about being called a “cis” woman. It’s just silly.

I’ll decide what I’m called, thanks. Not cis, fragile or silly. Just woman

 

[HarderFaster]

I've been considering this for a long time now, I was super sympathetic to the plight of trans women but the proposed GRA amendments are what made me critical of the movement. I don't think any woman would refuse to be polite and accommodating to a trans woman in our spaces, because we are generally conditioned to be so. However, my concern goes beyond bathrooms or changing rooms (as has been noted, trans women with a GRC have been using these spaces for decades and it doesn't bother me). My fear over the amendments with self-ID is more about spaces for vulnerable women such as DV shelters. You only have to look at Canada to see that men who very much present as men are self-IDing as women to access these services (see Danielle Moscato, and that Tyler character who someone screenshotted earlier). Most women will never end up in shelters or prison, so it's very easy to speak from a position of privilege and say "well the trans bathrooms situation doesn't bother me and therefore anyone bothered must be a bigot".

We need to consider the effect legislation like this has on sex protected spaces for women fleeing violence and abuse, or incarcerated women. Most shelters won't allow boys over 12 because the residents are so traumatised by men in their proximity. Imagine being a mum separated from her pre-pubescent son because he'd be a traumatising factor to other women, but there being a trans woman with many remaining male identifiers housed in the same building. It's just unimaginable to me.

And I agree that this is very much a male problem: trans women also experience considerable violence at the hands of men. However, in the same way that women have had to self-advocate and organise to protect themselves, the trans community should work (and women would be more than happy to advise and assist, I am positive) to create similar support networks which cater to the very specific needs of that community.

I think while women and trans women can be staunch allies for each other, our needs and services shouldn't be conflated. We're all oppressed because the label of 'not a man' is somehow considered less, but the implications of biology create nuance which I think we can't ignore.

 

[Mycuppatea]

I'm an intersex person and it was actually nice to read this type of thread without my community being brought up as a debating point and then SLAP there it was, and the H word no less!

The use of hermaphrodite is typically seen as a slur by us. Can it stop being used in this thread because it is offensive as well as inaccurate since humans can only be pseudo-hermaphrodites?

Similarly to the n word, some intersex people use the word to describe themselves but I've never met anyone who accepts others using it to describe or label us. I doubt anyone here would refer to BAME or LGBT people using a term those communities regard as a slur so it makes me feel very anxious to see it thrown around here.
.

 

[PoleStar]

don’t know why people are so averse to that word. I don’t always use it out of context, only when I talk about trans stuff.

I’m lucky enough that I’m able bodied and don’t have bladder/bowel issues (actually I have IBS but I know my triggers) because I’d hate to be forced to reveal myself just for the privilege of using the loos if I’m in public. That alone would be absolutely humiliating.

just being curious, what’s your (everyone here) stance on trans men using men’s bathrooms? assuming they pass as men. wouldn’t you be weirded out seeing a trans man using women’s loos in that case? is it suddenly ok if they have a vagina? see how all of this seems illogical to me.

ETA: trans women don’t feel safe using men’s loos, so I guess possible solutions would involve including unisex bathrooms for those who feel comfortable using them, or a designated trans/NB bathroom (which would invite violence too, imo). I suppose they can use disabled loos but I can’t see disablity companies doling out keys for trans people to use?

You don't know why people object to "cis"? Because it's bullshit, that's why. There are two sexes/genders - male and female, determined by X and Y chromosomes. They do not need to be quantified or qualified. Anyone who decides, for whatever reason, to transition to the opposite sex/gender to what they were born is a "transgender man/woman", anyone else is a man or a woman. Simple enough?

 

[Meh]

Have to say one part of the trans activism side of this debate seems to reek of white privilege. They still haven't addressed the issue of Muslim women in women only spaces, and they didn't give a rats ass about statistics about poorer women or PoC, both in the UK and abroad. I've seen black women in the UK who are doing a lot of work to fight FGM be abused for calling it F!!!GM. Sickening. Privileged white women are not all that matter, and seem to be the only people taken into account when saying trans rights don't diminish women's rights. Makes sense though as some of the loudest people speaking over and abusing JKR are straight, white, rich males who have never had to acknowledge their privilege.

YES!

It’s rage inducing to be made to feel that a fear of males in my personal space can have me painted as a “TERF” or some horrendous bigot... even more rage inducing when said strong view point comes from early 20s straight middle class white boy. Who knows and understands F*CK ALL about the feelings, challenges, fears and concerns of women.