Gender discussions

[Bitofthebubbly]

And unfortunately that’s just the tip of the iceberg:
Hannah Mouncy (Australian football and handball)
Laurel Hubbard (Weightlifting)
Fallon Fox (MMA)
Andraya Yearwood & Terri Miller (high school track & field)

Just to name a few more. These are all transwomen who have or are competing in women’s sports and are winning, breaking records, taking scholarship spots and injuring other competitors on a disproportionate scale. Most if not all of them were mediocre athletes when competing as men in the men’s category.

To allow someone with all the natural physical advantages that biological males are born with, things that don’t go away with hormones and surgery like bone density, bone structure, lung capacity, muscle mass compete in women’s sports is grossly unfair to the women and girls who have dedicated their lives to their sport. Sports haven’t always been so easily accessible for women and girls, we had to fight for our leagues and our teams and many women around the world are still fighting. Women’s sport should be protected and female athletes safeguarded from what is essentially cheating.

 

[jewelkitty]

Have to say one part of the trans activism side of this debate seems to reek of white privilege. They still haven't addressed the issue of Muslim women in women only spaces, and they didn't give a rats ass about statistics about poorer women or PoC, both in the UK and abroad. I've seen black women in the UK who are doing a lot of work to fight FGM be abused for calling it F!!!GM. Sickening. Privileged white women are not all that matter, and seem to be the only people taken into account when saying trans rights don't diminish women's rights. Makes sense though as some of the loudest people speaking over and abusing JKR are straight, white, rich males who have never had to acknowledge their privilege.

 

[LittleMy]

I can’t stand the term “cis” and feel offended every time someone uses it in reference to me. Call yourself whatever you want by all means, but don’t force your unwanted terms on me.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

We also need to talk about unscrupulous countries taking advantage of this loosening of requirements. Look at the Iranian 'womens' football team. 8 of them are male. No operations. Full genitalia. 8 females lost their places on the team for that. Women losing financial opportunities.

Most players on Iran’s women’s team are men: official

Iran’s soccer association has been blasted as “unethical” following bombshell reports that eight members of its women’s team are men. “[Eight players] have been playing with Iran’s female tea…

nypost.com

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Some things are on a spectrum. Thankfully age is not one of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46425774

sex isn’t on a spectrum though? It’s binary. And the privileges and discrimination that come with each sex don’t change when you indentify differently.

what about identifying as BAME to get a place on a scholarship? (Because that’s been done as well) is that ok? Why is it only women’s rights that are up for grabs?

if it truly is about being accepted as what every you identify as where are all the trans men clamouring to get into men’s spaces? It doesn’t happen. Because innately female
People (whether they present as women or men) are at risk from male people.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Well, one benefit of threads like these is that it makes it easy to know who to block. Thanks, transphobes, for outing yourselves.

And this is why we have the issue - when a subject is big, complicated and raises conflicts and requires deep critical thinking people nowadays seem to head-in-the-sand rather than listening.

They also like to shout insults then flounce like above.

Its all very juvenile.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Transphobic
adjective
1. having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Calling trans women men and referring to them as ‘men in dresses’ is transphobic. Would you not agree? Which is exactly what has been said on this thread. I’m just calling it as I see it.




You don’t want a healthy discussion, you want a place to come and spew your scaremongering and prejudices and then cry and pull the ‘woe is me, I’m being attacked because I’m a woman’ card when confronted and challenged. FYI TERF isn’t a slur.

Trans women are not women. They're not. If anyone wants to be referred to as she/ her, I will do so and I will respect their courage to want to live as women. But trans women are not women. Nor are trans men men. When women are being told that they're hiding behind feminism (WTF) for having valid concerns, you know something is very wrong. This whole trans ideology has failed women IMO. The want to appear "right on" has trumped logic in a lot of cases. I won't be reduced to the term "cis". As I said earlier, women should not be subcategories of their own gender.

 

[bubbletea123]

Discussed on another thread how M to F trans people seem way more extreme and problematic than F to M and I highly agree.

I remember when Caitlyn Jenner was Bruce, Bruce played at a golf club that was men only and had no problem with it. Suddenly when she became Caitlynn, she was complaining that women couldn't play there. Lol. Can't have have it both ways. Didn't give a shit when she was a man and could play there but suddenly now she's a woman, she wanted it changed.
Caitlynn also voted for Trump. Woof.

I was going to like Jo's tweet but worried that anyone that saw it, even people I know, would go after me publicly. How fucked up is that? Men still managing to silence women and speak about their rights by transitioning to a woman (some not even fully transitioning but thinking they can talk for us). Bog off. I know not all M to F are like this but it seems MANY are.

 

[bubbletea123]

Saw these comments elsewhere and 1000% agree.

"
Women can’t say they’re different from transwomen, but transwomen can differentiate themselves by calling us cis.

So transwomen can define women, but not women.

Crazy world."



"
hate to say this because I love my gay male friends but they are at the push of this and there is emotional blackmail going on where friendships are on the line if you disagree.

All women know they aren't women. The ones who say they are know it too, they're just being nice. Or what society tells them is nice. Women who have had PCOS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, children, abortions, periods, or women who have been told they won't have a period because there is a health issue, women undergoing menopause --all know what it is to be a woman: the ONLY thing that makes us different from men are these very biological things.

Being a woman is not lipstick, pink, a gravitation to pretty things, the desire to have long hair, or wear high heels. We are absolutely no different from men aside from our physical bodies and the limitations (and joys) that come from them. I don't wake up thinking like a woman. I wake up thinking like "me". I am reminded I am a woman by other people and by my own body, otherwise I'm not different from my brother.

What gay men and straight men for that matter on the other side of this argument don't understand is how the philosophy of gender performance = woman/man hurts actual women. It rolls us back to the 1950s when women had to look a certain way, act a certain way, and only like certain things in order to be the "right sort of woman."

Transpeople talk about erasure a lot while erasing the shit out of us."

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Why can’t people just discus there views, without being called transphobic?!

throwing that word out left right and center. Feels to me as if people are pushed into submission by shouting your a bully.

and in my eyes, you kinda loose your point.

Its a discussion and people will have different opinions and point of views. Due to upbringing and experience.
Even for me it’s hard to wrap my mind around it sometimes.

i just would like to keep my own identity as a woman. And transpeople come in so many shapes and forms nowadays. I’d love to say a trans woman is as much a woman as a cwoman.
But due to the (lack for better word) subcategories in trans atm. It’s hard to see where the line can be drawn.

In my opinion it also always seems to be the mtf that shout the loudest. I do not hear ftm say to much.

This is exactly the problem. Anyone who dares to think for themselves gets called a bully and a TERF. As women we're allowed to think for ourselves. Being told to think a certain way and getting shouted down and called TERFs? That's far from feminism

 

[jewelkitty]

Saw some really frustrating tweets on lesbian visibility day the other day, saying literally anyone can be a lesbian, including men attracted to men, men attracted to women, all you have to do is 'identify' as one. It completely erases the definition of lesbian! And of course anyone in opposition to this is immediately labelled a terf and transphobe
Seems like homophobia and sexism mean nothing anymore, transphobia is all that matters now apparently

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Emma Watson’s tweet sounds so robotic. No feeling to it at all not like JK’s statement. Love this reply though

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

They’ve got a few threads on the JK thing on Lipstickalley and they are going OFF in support of her. Seeing all these little pockets of women across the internet speak against this madness is somewhat comforting. This comment in particular summed it up perfectly for me.

 

[GossipMongoose]

Your argument re other non sex segregated spaces is an absolute straw man. I am not interested in whataboutery. If it’s such a non issue, why not open everywhere up to everyone regardless of their trouser contents or ‘gender ID’?

As for trans people being the only ones negatively or positively impacted by free access to bathrooms... You are living in a woke dream world there. Plenty of people are bothered by it. THAT IS WHY THE ARGUMENT EXISTS.

For what it’s worth, I’m not against ‘third spaces’ for trans people. They are a vulnerable, at risk group who are particularly at risk from men (using ‘men’ to mean males who identify as ‘men’ for clarity), as are women and children. However that doesn’t mean that women should be made to give up their safe spaces (hospitals, refuges, prisons etc). Trans people should have their own safe spaces that do not impinge on women’s sense (and reality) of safety and privacy.

 

[Argento]

Not all men are rapists and pedophiles but, rapists and pedophiles are usually men.

Allowing men legitimate (by way of self identity) access to female only spaces will increase the risk of abuse. Sadly, there are men who prey on woman and children and will go to considerable lengths to perpetrate this. There is a long history of men using legitimate access to woman and children to abuse and dominate. Priests, cub scout leaders, football coaches, gymnastics coaches, care home managers, youth club organisers, doctors etc etc. Google 'women's locker room videos' or 'women's changing rooms videos' or 'up skirt videos' and you will be horrified at what you will find. Actually don't, just take my word for it.

I wish we all lived in a world where we could all count on the goodness of humanity but the fact is men who think and act like predators are out there and we are proposing to give them access to female only spaces just by saying they are women. I understand that for the majority of trans women their intentions are good (in regard to self ID) but as we open the gates for the sheep we are also opening the gates for the wolf. That cannot be allowed to happen.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@gigi_93 I don't mean to be rude but I really don't think you get what we've been saying. Stating trans women are not women is not transphobic. It's just fact. Under the new umbrella of trans, anyone can identify themselves as a woman just because they want to. That's their prerogative if they want to do so but they are not the same as women. They have no business getting upset over simple facts like "women have periods". Not all women have periods, for many reasons, but only women can have them. That is just fact. Have we lost our minds as a society that this is even up for debate?

Links have been posted here from post op transsexual people who have experienced actual gender dysphoria and they don't agree with the modern trans ideology. Are they transphobic? No of course they're not.

And it's a bit rich to say posters here have been horrible when you have made comments about "feeble femininity" and urging some people to never have kids

 

[Meh]

Don’t get me wrong I understand everything you’ve said. It’s not a black and white issue.

My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.

Some comments here have been verging on that for me personally or have just been disrespectful I think But that’s my view.

I’m happy to detail my viewpoint in relation to trans people:

Fully supportive of trans people living as opposite sex, transitioning (hormonal/physical) and working towards living their life in a form that makes them happy.

I will never/have never, ever use/d slurs like “he she” “it” (indeed I have such a deep ingrained understanding that “IT” = Rude thay I cannot deal with people choosing this as a pronoun. I truly struggle with this one!). If someone wishes to be he/she and change their name to Dave/Chelsea etc. I will call them their chosen name with no question.

The rights under gender recognition I support strongly and protection from discrimination in health/education/housing /employment etc etc.

If a trans woman uses a female bathroom, no issues. She will have been through a full journey where she is and if she’s transitioned and is living as a woman, she’s a woman in my view.

However, where I have been struggling with is the new era of “woke” belief on twitter and the blind support for reducing criteria to access gender recognition certificates. Especially when it’s on a self identification basis with limited/little input from medical professionals. If this results in even a tiny % risk to women (inc trans) and girls safety and security being at risk then I cannot support this.

Yes, this is a very murky area with nuance and so many ethical dilemmas. Obviously I (and most others I would assume) do not want trans people to suffer more turmoil, I don’t want trans suicide rates to increase. I want a world where trans can feel accepted and safe. But I also want a world where women and girls safety and hard fought for protections and safe spaces (i.e women’s shelters) are recognised and maintained. I also feel like this mantra of everyone having to accept a narrative, without question, is dangerous. What about critical thought? What about assessing situations and listening to our instincts / voice inside us that tries to reason and explain the unknown?

In today’s world I see the term “transphobic” and “hate” hurled around (not by you as you have been great in opposing and countering viewpoints) but it’s easy for a small fringe of any movement to dominate. I truly believe this does more harm than good as it is likely to confirm potential prejudice in people rather than challenge them.

I don’t have the answers. I don’t think anyone does. One thing I know is I am personally not transphobic and I’m not a radical feminist but I do feel there is real safeguarding issues that need wider discussion before any amendment to GRA / self certifying. And the folk screaming down anyone who doesn’t conform to their group think is not doing the overall cause any good. IMO.

 

[bubbletea123]

Women have been fighting for their rights for years so frankly it is insulting to be put into a subcategory (cis women) and it is not a phrase I will EVER apply to myself. I also will never be the "she/her" explainer...i have a female face and body so take a wild guess at my pronouns.
Honestly, I understand there are attacks on trans people but I think many MTF trans saying they're treated badly because they're trans are actually just encountering the sexism women have had to battle for YEARS. Welcome to what it's like being a woman.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Just gonna leave this here

J. K. Rowling and the trans activists: a story in screenshots

Part 1

medium.com

Woman: expresses an opinion in a calm and measured way without using hateful or derogatory language.

Almost everyone else: OMG shut the fuck up bitch/cunt/hag/terf lalala we’re not listening.

Twitter is a hell of a place.

 

[Sarah-e]

Sorry for double post but just want to add that 'women' is increasingly becoming a dirty word. Trans activists often want 'womxn' to replace it.
I have never seen them call for the word 'men' to be replaced with 'mxn.'

I kind of feel woman are losing their own group identity because we have to be inclusive of the trans and non-binary community.