I can’t even imagine how difficult this must be. I hope your son gets to see someone sooner rather than later! I’d hate for a trans person to be treated any differently pre-hormones simply because waiting times are so long and they don’t have the financial capability to go private.
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I agree: the majority of women do not require shelters or a safe house or go to prison. However, the wider implications of the Gender Reform Act are that women who do may well be put into contact with self-identifying trans women with motivations beyond dysphoria for being in a women's space.
As has been noted, yes, this is a fringe issue, but it shows that new legislation should not be made uncritically, without input from women's groups. I'm not tranphobic: I don't care about whether trans people "pass" to be afforded respect regarding their gender presentation, I understand the obstacles many trans people face day to day, but I think reforms need to be very nuanced to keep some of the sex-based protections which are currently enshrined by law.
I know that some on this thread are clearly very interested in this issue and wonder if their research has included reading about Ireland post 2015.
It's not just woman in Africa and Asia though, it's woman globally including the UK.
As an African woman who lives in the UK and is a feminist yes this is something I'm actively campaigning to help change, amongst other feminist topics including the preservation of single sex spaces. For what it's worth I'm also campaigning with BLM, and for more mental health funding, along with early eating disorder intervention. I am also part of my workplace's (a council) LBGT network to help focus on LGBT centric issues across our local area, which includes organising trans supporting events such as trans day of remembrance (as well as other more general LGBT related things - most recently before lockdown we focussed on LGBT author representation in libraries). On top of that I also volunteer for a dog shelter and advocate against puppy farms. Unbelievable that people can care about multiple problems at once isn't it?
I'm also not working to make life more difficult for trans woman
What a dismissive response
Yep. And some of the problems I've spoken about earlier in this thread are presenting themselves. https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/t...ansgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/
I understand it may seem dismissive to you. Fair enough.
I think that "gender critical" rhetorical makes life more difficult for trans people, women especially. JK Rowling is not the only one who got abuse following her blog post. Some of the posts on this thread are transphobic and not an attempt at measured debate.
I think a lot of gc rhetoric is scaremongering hyperbole. No one is trying to erase women. No one is trying to force lesbians to sleep with trans men. Children are not being administered irreversible medical procedures. Children are not being recruited or convinced they are transgender. A quicker process for trans people to change documentation won't mean the ladies loos will be over run by predatory males.
If you believe those things, in my opinion you have been lied to, and led to believe that improved rights for a minority group threatens your rights. The people making this argument are transphobes.
I understand that often those who subscribe to "gender critical" ideas believe that they are acting with the best of intentions. But there are also "gender critics" who are spreading hate speech. I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this.
I don't think people who believe this stuff are bad people or anything. But I think they are mistaken and that the ideas they expound cause real harm to trans people.
Is that it?
I think that "gender critical" rhetorical makes life more difficult for trans people, women especially. JK Rowling is not the only one who got abuse following her blog post. Some of the posts on this thread are transphobic and not an attempt at measured debate.
I think a lot of gc rhetoric is scaremongering hyperbole. No one is trying to erase women. No one is trying to force lesbians to sleep with trans men. Children are not being administered irreversible medical procedures. Children are not being recruited or convinced they are transgender. A quicker process for trans people to change documentation won't mean the ladies loos will be over run by predatory males.
If you believe those things, in my opinion you have been lied to, and led to believe that improved rights for a minority group threatens your rights. The people making this argument are transphobes.
I understand that often those who subscribe to "gender critical" ideas believe that they are acting with the best of intentions. But there are also "gender critics" who are spreading hate speech. I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this.
I don't think people who believe this stuff are bad people or anything. But I think they are mistaken and that the ideas they expound cause real harm to trans people.
A trans woman is in a women's prison.
Is that it?
I’ve always understood that it could be an issue putting a MTF person in a female prison if they still have their biological genitals.
But put them in a men’s prison and they’d probably get more abuse. That’s why it’s so awkward, none of these subjects are as black and white as some people make them out to be.
poor lad
But put them in a men’s prison and they’d probably get more abuse. That’s why it’s so awkward, none of these subjects are as black and white as some people make them out to be.
It is hard but he has a good spirit thankfully. He obviously is struggling a lot but he’s better than he was now that he can at least transition socially. Physically he still struggles a lot, but when strangers call him ‘he’ and ‘sir’ it makes his face light up. Nobody would know he wasn’t a biological male he just looks about 13 rather than 16
poor ladYou asked if there were concerns over self-ID in Ireland, @Mselvista, and I responded with an article which shows there are, in fact, concerns. If you'd be happy to be incarcerated with someone like that, then good for you. I'm less sure, however, that this would be a safe situation for many of the female population, who are often addicts and survivors of abuse. I've merely been trying to make the point that legal reform which makes life easier for one group of oppressed people should not put another group of oppressed people at risk.
But I think your earlier response of "campaign for women in Africa and Asia" then shows that your responses really aren't in good faith, so I'm wasting my time.
ETA: "someone like that" meaning a ten time sex offender and child abuser.
But I think your earlier response of "campaign for women in Africa and Asia" then shows that your responses really aren't in good faith, so I'm wasting my time.
ETA: "someone like that" meaning a ten time sex offender and child abuser.
God this is all so complicated. A week ago I would felt differently to how I feel since reading JKs essay.
I saw the outrage on twitter about her and everyone screaming that she was transphobic and saw some horrendous bullying, everyone on my feed was on her like a pack of wolves.
I thought omg what has she said. Then I read her essay and I can’t see anything transphobic there and I’m heart broken about how she’s been treated.
It’s led me down a rabbit hole the last few days looking into all sides. And now I am very worried about self IDing and the mermaids charity. And I’m totally for safe spaces for women. However I’m just as concerned about safe spaces for trans women against male violence. What’s the answer? I don’t know.
I saw the outrage on twitter about her and everyone screaming that she was transphobic and saw some horrendous bullying, everyone on my feed was on her like a pack of wolves.
I thought omg what has she said. Then I read her essay and I can’t see anything transphobic there and I’m heart broken about how she’s been treated.
It’s led me down a rabbit hole the last few days looking into all sides. And now I am very worried about self IDing and the mermaids charity. And I’m totally for safe spaces for women. However I’m just as concerned about safe spaces for trans women against male violence. What’s the answer? I don’t know.
W
Sounds like he has a great, supportive battle which I’m sure makes a huge positive difference in any trans persons lifeI’ve always understood that it could be an issue putting a MTF person in a female prison if they still have their biological genitals.
But put them in a men’s prison and they’d probably get more abuse. That’s why it’s so awkward, none of these subjects are as black and white as some people make them out to be.
It is hard but he has a good spirit thankfully. He obviously is struggling a lot but he’s better than he was now that he can at least transition socially. Physically he still struggles a lot, but when strangers call him ‘he’ and ‘sir’ it makes his face light up. Nobody would know he wasn’t a biological male he just looks about 13 rather than 16
No, I did not. I said I wondered if anyone's research has included reading about Ireland post 2015.
I didn't ask if there were concerns.
It is nearly 5 years since the changes in Ireland.
Instead of hypothetical "what someone did this" or "what if someone did that" there is a real life model of a society very close culturally to the UK's where self id has been enacted.
Perhaps research of what has happened in refuges in Ireland. Or reading how the changes in Ireland have impacted cis women's lives would be fruitful.
It may reassure that any changes to the gra on the uk would not necessarily lead to the results you fear.
@Mselvista I posted a video here a while back, a transsexual named Kristina Jayne Harrisson. She is evidently very pro women and as a transsexual woman, she has an excellent insight into the ideology. It's from around 2018. I'm out and about at the moment so am not able to search for the link but if I think of it, I'll pop it over later. She's excellent and speaks so clearly on the modern trans ideology and how she believes it's dangerous. She also notes that transsexual is now seen as a dirty word. She was also called bigoted despite fighting hard for trans rights herself!
I must admit that I had only skimmed the article so missed this info. As the article makes clear a risk assessment has taken place and appropriate measures take to hopefully eliminate any risk.
I can see how that could be seen as flippant.
I mean that this obsession with trans women means that other feminist issues do not get the attention they deserve. It's a moral panic. And, like most moral panics is largely without foundation.
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I'll bet my annual salary that said risk assessment was conducted by a man. You seem to like receipts and can't find anything at speed but here are the Irish Prison Service in 2018 admitting that they are majority staffed by white men: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-prison-3844007-Feb2018/?amp=1
It surprises me that someone so concerned for the welfare of minorities would put so much faith in an administrative process like a risk assessment.
But anyway, I doubt we'll agree.
Ok. The Woman's Place one. I'll have a look. But that there is not consensus within the trans community is known and sometimes there is a generational aspect to this.
I haven't watched the video yet but am I supposed to take notice if the argument it presents because a trans woman is making it? But I can link to numerous other trans voices who will give an alternative viewpoint. Why is Kristina Jayne Harrison's trans status mentioned unless to give credence to her argument?
It is nearly five years since the law changed. The horrendous consequences gc feminists have said are a consequence of self id do not appear to have happened.
Why?
Could it be because they are unfounded?
Is that a possibility?
Why do you need to find stuff at speed? Why aren't horror stories from Ireland all over mumsnet and the gender critical feminism subreddits.
Can you think of a reason why they aren't?
Have they not happened and could the concerns re self id be unfounded?
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So let’s say self ID was introduced. Do people believe that these predatory men will turn over a new leaf and never assault/grape a woman simply because they were not able to do it by pretending to be a trans women to access a female only space? If a man is wants to assault a woman, he will find a way to do it in another setting. I can’t imagine it would have a huge impact on the rates of sexual assault and grape.
And if the self ID is only available to those who are transitioning, does this mean those awaiting treatment aren’t permitted to live as a woman in public places ? I can only imagine (the already high) suicide rates would increase, if that was the case.
And I don’t have a lot of knowledge but I assume living as a woman for a specific period of time is a requirement to even begin hormone therapy. If trans women can’t do this because they can’t self ID, how do they meet the criteria to begin hormones?
I feel like, similar to grape culture where we teach women not to be alone when intoxicated, not to walk in unlit alleyways and not to wear revealing clothes instead of teaching boys not to be rapists.
We are telling trans women they have to prove their gender identity rather than teaching boy’s not use their existence to prey on and grape women? Or introduce severe punishments in these instances to deter? It is not trans women’s fault that these monsters exist, it feels so unfair that they must pay the price.
Dwelling on this debate and all the news in the UK yday (the right wing thugs in London) just honestly has me feeling so negative towards men. Even in my personal life, the times I’ve ever heard genuine transphobic, homophobic and racist comments have been from men 99% of the time. Men are the problem here and women, trans or otherwise, have to suffer because of it. It’s just so unfair.
And if the self ID is only available to those who are transitioning, does this mean those awaiting treatment aren’t permitted to live as a woman in public places ? I can only imagine (the already high) suicide rates would increase, if that was the case.
And I don’t have a lot of knowledge but I assume living as a woman for a specific period of time is a requirement to even begin hormone therapy. If trans women can’t do this because they can’t self ID, how do they meet the criteria to begin hormones?
I feel like, similar to grape culture where we teach women not to be alone when intoxicated, not to walk in unlit alleyways and not to wear revealing clothes instead of teaching boys not to be rapists.
We are telling trans women they have to prove their gender identity rather than teaching boy’s not use their existence to prey on and grape women? Or introduce severe punishments in these instances to deter? It is not trans women’s fault that these monsters exist, it feels so unfair that they must pay the price.
Dwelling on this debate and all the news in the UK yday (the right wing thugs in London) just honestly has me feeling so negative towards men. Even in my personal life, the times I’ve ever heard genuine transphobic, homophobic and racist comments have been from men 99% of the time. Men are the problem here and women, trans or otherwise, have to suffer because of it. It’s just so unfair.
This is a fairly short and accessible video re why JK Rowling's is considered transphobic.
There's a more recent one but it was made before her blogpost.
It might be interesting to some.
Also it's nice to see a trans man's view as they are so often sidelined.
There's a more recent one but it was made before her blogpost.
It might be interesting to some.
Also it's nice to see a trans man's view as they are so often sidelined.
I don't frequent Reddit or Mumsnet, @Mselvista, so I wouldn't know. And no need to be patronising. Ireland has a considerably smaller population than the UK so I'm not sure how comparable statistics are. Ireland was also home to major abuse scandals in the Catholic church what with paedophile priests and Magdalene laundries but these stories took decades to emerge because, surprise surprise, it was disenfranchised groups who were affected.
I've attached some images that hopefully explain why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lots of companies and local authorities have also adopted their guidance even though it isn't law.
A couple of tweets about the failed mixed sex prisons in Denmark (I don't read Danish so I haven't fact checked the article).
There is also the Tavistock whistleblowers who resigned over their concerns about the treatment of children. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/
A couple of tweets about the failed mixed sex prisons in Denmark (I don't read Danish so I haven't fact checked the article).
There is also the Tavistock whistleblowers who resigned over their concerns about the treatment of children. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/
Attachments
This is a great video. Sums up why I am not a fan of JK at all and will never be.
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