I think it will end up the individual doctors who have approved/carried out the surgery rather than a whole hospital or something
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Think about how many kids are going to become infertile later in life and that will probably sue. Or kids of parents who pushed gender identity on them. It will all come out in the wash in a few years
I listened to a really interesting podcast about collective collusion - gender a wider lense. Is on YouTube as well
It would be very interesting legally because I’m assuming it would be some kind of negligence case. However there are a few reasons I think this would fail unfortunately. One of the components that must be considered in a negligence claim is the standard of care given. The test for this is, without getting too boring, whether a responsible body of other doctors would have given the same care (with an extra ‘gloss’ on this test which is that it also has to withstand logical scrutiny). Unfortunately, the way this test has been interpreted means in general if there are some other doctors who agree with the care you gave, you satisfy the test. The ‘logical scrutiny’ was meant to prevent doctors from merely finding one other doctor and saying ‘look, here’s a responsible body of medical opinion who agrees with me’ but it’s rare that a judge will say medical treatment given does not withstand logical scrutiny.
The second reason is that I imagine gender clinics etc will be viewed differently than normal hospitals because unlike many conditions where you don’t know necessarily what treatment you might get, people take children to these clinics for HRT. They know that’s what it will be. And I think it would be very difficult therefore to prove negligence because, in essence, you have gone seeking that particular treatment which is quite different from most other conditions.
There is however an option I personally think could arise which is a class action if the advice the NHS as a whole gave was negligent. And by this I mean the fact that the NHS has recently changed their guidance to say puberty blockers are not reversible. But before that, they said they were. So if it turns out there was never any evidence for that claim, and the NHS was negligent in its advice previously, that would result in a potentially successful action against probably NICE or something rather than individual doctors.
Sorry if this was boring!
It’s going to be heart breaking. I hope they successfully sue, but no amount of money will bring their fertility back. I’ve seen some of trans men on YouTube say they froze some of their eggs first. I’m sorry, but has anyone seen the data on pregnancy from frozen eggs? It’s terrible. Frozen embryos way more successful.
no this is interesting, would there be a chance if the patient was underage at the time they could sue the parent or something?
I did not know this about the NHS guidance! a pretty big change to make in terms of advice!
This is such a good point! Why is it said that detransitioners "were never really trans" but if anyone questions Barbie Kardashian's trans status (even though he literally got told he was not trans at Tavistock) they are TRANSPHOBIC!!!!!1111
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On the whole duty of care thing, do you think it would be possible to argue that these gender clinics should have a higher standard of care towards young people seeking this specific treatment because the whole thing is so uncertain and their parents could have influenced them towards that gender identity? Plus, as far as I understand part of the process for getting the treatment is being evaluated by a psychologist, though I may be wrong.
As a law student I absolutely love seeing this discussion and actually understanding it lmao, though I never really considered it in such context
That’s really interesting. And depressing. As time goes on their voices are going to get louder anyway, that gives me some hope. They should all get together to be heard. And the de transitioners I have seen have a no ducks attitude when it comes to what they now look like. They could be great role models for dysphoric kids. This is what I look and sound like - deal with it
I have already seen an advert for a 'no-win, no-fee' lawyer in the UK for people who feel they were misdiagnosed as trans and given hormones or weren't properly informed about their surgeries. I suspect there will be a lot of rich lawyers in a few years.
I don’t think it’s clear enough to say yet. Children’s rights are developing at a rapid rate at the moment, people are talking about for example children of influencers being able to sue in the future for loss of privacy etc when photos and videos have been posted without their consent. The problem is, you do have to remember that there is a doctor here prescribing whatever the treatment is. You actually don’t have a right in this jurisdiction to demand whatever treatment you want from medical professionals - if they don’t think you need it, they won’t prescribe it and you can’t make them. So, while parents take their kids to clinics for PBs, the buck still stops with whoever has prescribed them. My view on that is the prescribing guidelines etc are too weak which again is not really the fault of individual doctors - they are likely under huge pressure not to be accused of transphobia. So the answer to your question is would any court find a parent liable for consenting to treatment that a medical professional has said their child needs? And in my opinion the answer is unfortunately no.
None of their arguments or logic match up
'Trans people are who they say they are. No, not those ones.'
I'm still annoyed when I think of Irish Twitter getting annoyed over Barbie Kardashian being 'dead named'. Instead of being annoyed that he, a violent male, was placed in a womens prison
@judgejohndeed that's a good point, it must be a nightmare for doctors, especially when you throw suicide ideation into the mix and parents who are also pushing gender ideology on their kids.
Misdiagnosed would be very hard to prove I think but the properly informed one is an interesting idea. For negligent non-disclosure of information cases you have to prove that had you known about the information you weren't told, you would not have gone ahead with the treatment. Historically this has not been very successful (regardless of what the media would have you think, courts are very sympathetic to doctors and that's why you only ever hear of huge ~ pay outs ~ where the injuries are life changing or catastrophic). But, if it turns out that the NHS advice was negligent and many patients for example said 'if I knew I would risk becoming infertile I never would have had this treatment' that might be successful, especially if as I mentioned earlier it was some kind of class action. I do also wonder if there is even a potential product liability case here where whoever has manufactured the PBs has said they are reversible when they aren't.
I don't think it would be a higher standard, it would just be the objective reasonable patient test with the caveat that children aren't adults and then Bolam/Bolitho as usual. Whoever is doing the psychatric assessments should have protected themselves against the claim that parental influence is causing the body dysmorphia, I would imagine they are watertight on stuff like that but I'm not sure
I think it is awful for them right now and they are facing a lot of pressure with it. I keep seeing anonymous Twitters etc of GC medical practitioners who fear losing their jobs if they speak up.
I remember Tiffany Richardson (now banned from twitter) said she used to work for that company and they wouldn’t be saying this unless they thought they had a good chance of winning
Just ventured into the subreddit ‘terfisafetish’ I shouldn’t have... this tit makes me so so sad for women all around the world!
I really think there is something very very dodgy that has gone on re the sudden change in the NHS guidance from reversible to 'we don't know'. I've definitely said this before but saying 'we don't know' now means they never 'knew' they were reversible. Which means the guidance has always been negligent. That's when you'd have to look back and see what the manufacturers promised and if they collected longitudinal data on fertility etc in the clinical trial phase. This kind of thing will take probably quite a long time to come out but if it's something like this it will absolutely blow when it does, forget suing individual doctors here this is an institutional failure to protect children through negligence and it will (rightly) cost them an absolute fortune.
"You are not in trouble im just trying to educate you"
I read that as meaning "don't make the same mistake again, or else"
Wow! Would you take on something like this?
I imagine it would have silks to be honest, and also a very brave, well reputed firm and chambers because the negative press would be immense.
Tbh I don't understand how 'not really trans' argument helps them. How did keira get hormones and surgery when she's not 'really trans'? Its almost like the affirmation model is a bad idea...oh no
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