Gender Discussions #3

[mcfeez]

Some people would argue that, yes.

Personally I believe that these 98% of children in the study found themselves on a medical conveyor belt that they couldn’t get off. Once they start puberty blockers they inevitably proceed to take cross sex hormones. It’s also what the Tavistock staff were telling them and their parents to do. This path was how they were going to fix themselves and fix their dysphoria.

Compare that with trans identifying kids who weren’t given the drugs. They overwhelming desist once they’re out of their teens.

Think for a moment - surely it’s too much of a coincidence to say the kids who took blockers must be truly trans, and the kids who didn’t, and desisted, must be not truly trans.

Also, how to do account for the massive increase in trans identifying kids over the last few years? Are more trans kids simply being born, or is it social contagion?

Do you have medical or academic evidence to support that these 98% of childrence felt pressured in any way at all?

Honestly? I feel like you would use any number of children who de-transitioned to back up your argument too. What is the "magic number" of people transitioning to make you think the program is successful or accurate?

 

[Doc]

Do you have medical or academic evidence to support that these 98% of childrence felt pressured in any way at all?

Maytoseptember did say they “personally believed”, ie they indicated they didn’t have evidence and then went on to explain reasoning why they held that belief. Feeling pressured would rely on personal testimony as evidence anyway, so you’d easily fall into a circular argument over a point that could never be thrashed out.

A child detransitioning is a chid too much. The only way to guarantee these horrendous mistakes never happen is to stop tinkering with the physical state based on the mental state of a *developing* individual.

What dysphoric kids NEED is easy access to quality, unbiased psychological support until such a time that they develop into adults and have autonomy.

There’s a lot to unpack from a child brain about sexuality and developing to become sexually appealing to others. Gender and orientation is intrinsically linked with that. Throw into the mix societal influences and experiences and no wonder they’re begging for blockers.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Just sharing this again... probably the most concise list of “why puberty blockers aren’t reversible” I can find, with sources too. duck mermaids & Tavistock for pedalling this tit to kids.

The Ovarit Rag | Substack

Comments on feminism and platforming controversial speech from the women who ran Ovarit. Click to read The Ovarit Rag, a Substack publication with thousands of subscribers.

ovarit.com

 

[SqualorVictoria]

For those still operating under the assumption that trans people face more violence than women:

Transgender women criminality shows male pattern | Fair Play For Women

Transgender women in prison exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality, new data confirms. Crimes match birth sex not gender identity. So....

fairplayforwomen.com

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Binders are also self harm

And so are high heels.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Are you being serious? High heels don't cause breathing problems.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Are you being serious? High heels don't cause breathing problems.

No but they can cause serious foot and spine problems.

Are High Heels Bad For Your Health? - Featured, Health Topics, Orthopedics - Hackensack Meridian Health

Learn how high heels affect your feet and other areas of your body, and find tips for how you can relieve the pain.

www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org

Are high heels bad for your health? Two experts review the evidence

There are more than 500 studies into the effects of high heels on wearers’ health.

theconversation.com

I'm not saying that binders are ok, I'm just saying we've got a bit of a double standard because one is more socially acceptable than the other.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

It's an absurd comparison. I hardly ever wear heels, only on special occasions. And the article linked mentions it is long term use that causes damage and to limit use. That is what I and I'd wager a lot of other women do. Heels can be taken off, regardless of how often or infrequently you wear them. Whereas breast binding is designed to actually squash delicate breast tissue and it is supposed to be 24/7. It causes breathing difficulties and is actively designed to cause physical changes (unlike high heels which will just make you look taller when you wear them but won't make you actually taller)

Oh and if you're going to go down the road of arguing that long term use of anything is self harm we could be here all day. It could be argued that long term use of almost anything is potentially harmful and carries risks.

If you're not saying that binding is ok, why are you comparing it to fashion items? Of course one is socially acceptable and one isn't, for obvious reasons

 

[Mamacita]

It's an absurd comparison. I hardly ever wear heels, only on special occasions. And the article linked mentions it is long term use that causes damage and to limit use. That is what I and I'd wager a lot of other women do. Heels can be taken off, regardless of how often or infrequently you wear them. Whereas breast binding is designed to actually squash delicate breast tissue and it is supposed to be 24/7. It causes breathing difficulties and is actively designed to cause physical changes (unlike high heels which will just make you look taller when you wear them but won't make you actually taller)

Oh and if you're going to go down the road of arguing that long term use of anything is self harm we could be here all day. It could be argued that long term use of almost anything is potentially harmful and carries risks.

If you're not saying that binding is ok, why are you comparing it to fashion items? Of course one is socially acceptable and one isn't, for obvious reasons

Yeah apart from in some jobs women don't actually get a choice and have to wear heels, but I guess that's off topic

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

It's an absurd comparison. I hardly ever wear heels, only on special occasions. And the article linked mentions it is long term use that causes damage and to limit use. That is what I and I'd wager a lot of other women do. Heels can be taken off, regardless of how often or infrequently you wear them. Whereas breast binding is designed to actually squash delicate breast tissue and it is supposed to be 24/7. It causes breathing difficulties and is actively designed to cause physical changes (unlike high heels which will just make you look taller when you wear them but won't make you actually taller)

Oh and if you're going to go down the road of arguing that long term use of anything is self harm we could be here all day. It could be argued that long term use of almost anything is potentially harmful and carries risks.

I did a google on chest binders and came across several articles explaining the dangers and risks of wearing and if you are going to wear them, how to do it as safely as possible - not wearing them all the time, not wearing homemade ones, which materials are going to be best etc, to take days off, and how wearing one too much is likely to cause complications if you are intending to have top surgery.

While I don't know if gender questioning people are getting that information on Tumblr, Reddit and YouTube, information on that is a google away.

 

[rosemarina]

Breast binding is probably closer to foot-binding than to wearing high heels.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Yeah apart from in some jobs women don't actually get a choice and have to wear heels, but I guess that's off topic

Yet another example of sexism that women can face

I did a google on chest binders and came across several articles explaining the dangers and risks of wearing and if you are going to wear them, how to do it as safely as possible - not wearing them all the time, not wearing homemade ones, which materials are going to be best etc, to take days off, and how wearing one too much is likely to cause complications if you are intending to have top surgery.

While I don't know if gender questioning people are getting that information on Tumblr, Reddit and YouTube, information on that is a google away.

I'm sorry but the people writing these articles are those who also hate their bodies and think their breasts are something to be ashamed of. Kids shouldn't be breast binding at all. It shouldn't be encouraged

Breast binding is probably closer to foot-binding than to wearing high heels.

Yes, exactly

 

[maytoseptember]

What is the "magic number" of people transitioning to make you think the program is successful or accurate?

There is no magic number because the only acceptable number is zero. A child is never born into the wrong body. There is no such thing as a boy’s brain in a girls body and vice versa. No child should have their gender distress affirmed by professionals. No child should be allowed to take puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

Do we give anorexic children diet pills and gastric bands? If not, why not?

 

[Zenchick101]

something important. https://www.womenarehuman.com/law-l...examiners-trans-activists-react-with-outrage/

 

[2020two]

Imagine being the kind of person who is outraged that they cannot examine a grape victim who has undoubtedly just had the worst experience of their life, and I speak from experience here honestly it's shocking. Do they not realise how utterly ridiculous they sound? The entitlement to think their delusions comes before a grape victim. Wow.

 

[JustHereForTheAgriculture]

something important. https://www.womenarehuman.com/law-l...examiners-trans-activists-react-with-outrage/

All those tweets about trans people not feeling safe!
I wonder how safe a woman feels after being grape.
It’s not the ‘terfs’ and ‘transphobes’ genuine trans people need to worry about, it’s so called TRAs like these!

 

[thatstupidcat]

A lot of trans theory seems to be what happens when importance is given more to postmodern and post structural literary theories than to actual evidence-led science.

A long time ago I had to sit through lectures at a UK red brick university talking about gender identity as a construct with some cack handed references to ancient Hellenic / Roman / Pagan legends such as the Myth of Attis (a figure who castrated himself and died) that was used in sex cults in Rome supposedly as a protest against gender roles and the inversion of power structures - so slaves becoming kings for the evening and vice versa. I always wondered about the intersection between the Marxists in my year group and those that wanted to abolish gender etc.

It seems that the weirdo lecturers who tortured me with their narrow and very academic worldviews have somehow managed to influence those without the scientific or psychological grounding who have clearly went on to influence political policy on their old teachers’ behalfs.

 

[Zenchick101]

A lot of trans theory seems to be what happens when importance is given more to postmodern and post structural literary theories than to actual evidence-led science.

A long time ago I had to sit through lectures at a UK red brick university talking about gender identity as a construct with some cack handed references to ancient Hellenic / Roman / Pagan legends such as the Myth of Attis (a figure who castrated himself and died) that was used in sex cults in Rome supposedly as a protest against gender roles and the inversion of power structures - so slaves becoming kings for the evening and vice versa. I always wondered about the intersection between the Marxists in my year group and those that wanted to abolish gender etc.

It seems that the weirdo lecturers who tortured me with their narrow and very academic worldviews have somehow managed to influence those without the scientific or psychological grounding who have clearly went on to influence political policy on their old teachers’ behalfs.

Thing is those theories and legends are open to interpretation and you are going to see what you want to see in them imo.

Why?

There is no concrete evidence to prove if those legends are real, and if they were, no one from that time period to actually say what it was like, what it's really about etc. So as a modern men/woman you are putting your modern worldview on something you have no real knowledge or experience of. Say those legends are fake - someone from that time period would give a different interpretation of them.

so thoses marxists lecturers are going to look for parts of that story that supports their view because that's what they want to see.

Imagine being the kind of person who is outraged that they cannot examine a grape victim who has undoubtedly just had the worst experience of their life, and I speak from experience here honestly it's shocking. Do they not realise how utterly ridiculous they sound? The entitlement to think their delusions comes before a grape victim. Wow.

Let's rephrase: "Yes a woman was grape, overpowered by a man, with a male body who used their pen, a male sexual organ to penetrate their naturally weaker female body against her consent, for their own sexual and controlling desire. But I a male should get to examine said woman's body and tina that was just violated because I don't identify with the physical reality of my body and sex. How I identify should be a priority over who a sexual trauma victim wants to have examine their private parts." - horrifying no?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

There is no magic number because the only acceptable number is zero. A child is never born into the wrong body. There is no such thing as a boy’s brain in a girls body and vice versa. No child should have their gender distress affirmed by professionals. No child should be allowed to take puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

Do we give anorexic children diet pills and gastric bands? If not, why not?

Exactly. But if you compare it to anorexia, trans people often say that's a transphobic dogwhistle and that GD not a mental health condition, it's an orientation, it's feelings, it's "who I've always been inside". On the other hand though, they're complaining about trans healthcare being denied to kids since the Keira Bell court case. Which is it?

 

[Zenchick101]

I'm not that bothered by the word cis.

Words are complex things. Some LGBT plus people like the word queer. Others don't because of its history as a slur. Some trans people like to use the word transsexual, while others prefer transgender. Some women call themselves les, others prefer the word gay.

Some women will be happy to be called cis, some won't mind and some will dislike it. I think we just need to respect that.

I'm not massively seeing the problem with having a Christmas gift thing spearheaded by LGBT+ communities as long as the standard safe guarding any child Christmas gift scheme should have in place is in place.

I HATE cis and all the language changes for everything others have mentioned (when you push things on to me I never asked for, that will affect me I get pissed off) with one more thing.

the fact that latino/latina is now = latinx shows how obnoxious they are. How pretentious do you have to be to want to change how a whole ethnic group of people refer to themselves? How disrespectful, changing the rules, norms of a whole subgroup most have no claim to.

Exactly. But if you compare it to anorexia, trans people often say that's a transphobic dogwhistle and that GD not a mental health condition, it's an orientation, it's feelings, it's "who I've always been inside". On the other hand though, they're complaining about trans healthcare being denied to kids since the Keira Bell court case. Which is it?

Exactly. if it's not GD then what's the concrete basis? they love to latch on to LGB and minority struggles and experiences, but those have real tangible physical evidence and aren't based on an abstract theory that can't be proven (if you remove GD).