Gender Discussions #3

[CheshireLove]

Do you have a source for either of these claims?

Statistics are difficult to come by and as Glortard says, are often distorted by police reporting. Channel 4 however have done a fact check on the deaths of trans

FactCheck: how many trans people are murdered in the UK?

Let’s take a look at the statistics.

www.channel4.com

“According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.

A back-of-envelope calculation based on this data would suggest that the average trans person has a one-in-200,000 to one-in-500,000 chance of being murdered in the UK over the course of a year.

Figures from the ONS for 2008 to 2017show that the average adult in England and Wales has a one-in-100,000 chance of being murdered in a given year.

But it’s worth bearing in mind that the recorded number of trans murder victims is so small that it would only take one or two more murder cases every year for the UK “trans murder rate” to double or triple.”

Below is a screenshot from the statistical source linked in the article.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

You are coming across as having an astonishing lack of empathy, I have to say. Crimes against women are under reported too.

And I don't know what you mean by "the definition of trans". The modern day definition of trans has been posted yesterday and discussed on this thread. You're the one who keeps repeating that trans women are women but now you think there are multiple definitions?

 

[Glortard]

Do you have a source for either of these claims?

See rather than when you are presented by facts why don't you present some of you own as a counter....just a thought

Hate incidents are a complete waste of the police time as they are simply the recording of someone saying something someone else did not like. For instance you could report someone on twitter for something they say in support of woman that you view is critical of trans people in your view. That is therefore a hate incident that has been recorded. No actual crime has been committed.

So when you drill down into the actual crimes that have been committed followed by the number of people charged the number is miniscule. I have to stress I am not going into the number convicted simply the number charged by the police

Yet the headlines read only about the increase in hate incidents.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Crimes against women are under reported too.

I’m just going to leave this here.


www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-48095118

 

[CheshireLove]

From the same source as used in the Channel 4 Fact Check, 'Transgender V Transphobia' (a project run by TGEU), reports that there were 0 recorded 'trans and gender-diverse people' murdered in the UK in 2020.

 

[Glortard]

Statistics are difficult to come by and as Glortard says, are often distorted by police reporting. Channel 4 however have done a fact check on the deaths of trans

FactCheck: how many trans people are murdered in the UK?

Let’s take a look at the statistics.

www.channel4.com

“According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.

A back-of-envelope calculation based on this data would suggest that the average trans person has a one-in-200,000 to one-in-500,000 chance of being murdered in the UK over the course of a year.

Figures from the ONS for 2008 to 2017show that the average adult in England and Wales has a one-in-100,000 chance of being murdered in a given year.

But it’s worth bearing in mind that the recorded number of trans murder victims is so small that it would only take one or two more murder cases every year for the UK “trans murder rate” to double or triple.”

Below is a screenshot from the statistical source linked in the article.

View attachment 338409

I did come across that and it was not factchecked by channel 4 but rather presented by a trans organisation. Below is a link which actually gives more information about each murder and it also details that there have been more trans murderers in the UK than trans people killed. However having not checked any of the stories in any great detail I don't know the veracity of them all

Trans homicides in the UK: a closer look at the numbers – Trans Crime UK

 

[Zenchick101]

number o

Yes. But there are a lot of aspects that need looking at in order to build an accurate picture - numbers of trans people, what definition of trans we're even using, underreporting of crimes against minority groups etc.

number of trans people? sure, the definition of trans well.. society's definition = anyone who identify as, underreporting of crimes against minority groups? skeptical but if you can come up with proof of that why not.

It's getting late for me, but if you're able to bring different research/articles to support your side I think that'd be an interesting read.

I'm curious have I made you question some things? just curious.
Also I'm sorry your friends have faced harrassement, however not everyone can escape harrassement like some transwomen can, and that's a big difference.

 

[Mel Donte]

You are coming across as having an astonishing lack of empathy, I have to say. Crimes against women are under reported too.

And I don't know what you mean by "the definition of trans". The modern day definition of trans has been posted yesterday and discussed on this thread. You're the one who keeps repeating that trans women are women but now you think there are multiple definitions?

By definition I mean like how in the above Channel 4 article it clarifies that their estimation on the amount of trans people in the UK includes "people who have been given legal recognition of their change of sex in the form of a Gender Recognition Certificate as well as those who self-identify as transgender".

 

[CheshireLove]

By definition I mean like how in the above Channel 4 article it clarifies that their estimation on the amount of trans people in the UK includes "people who have been given legal recognition of their change of sex in the form of a Gender Recognition Certificate as well as those who self-identify as transgender".

That's because Channel 4 are using numbers compiled by Transgender Europe, who base their statistics on people who are 'trans and gender diverse'.

It would make sense that a trans charity/group would include people who don't have a GRC - because they see being trans as a matter of self-identity and being 'gender diverse'.

Even when these trans charities and groups present the murder figures they themselves have compiled, it still doesn't add up to the epidemic that charities like Stonewall are presenting. 0 muders of trans people in the UK this year. 1 last year. That's GRC AND 'gender diverse'.

 

[Mel Donte]

I'm curious have I made you question some things? just curious.

No. Which is a shame because I really did come on here looking for a discussion. There don't seem to be many places to discuss viewpoints that fall anywhere between 'trans women are men who want to threaten our identity and hurt us' and 'if you're even the slightest bit gender non-conforming you should get on hormones straight away' and the polarisation doesn't help anyone (hey, it's almost as though binary viewpoints are bad news ). I guess I'm going to have to finally sign up for a bloody Reddit account so I can join r/truscum, as though I don't already waste enough time on the internet.

 

[2020two]

Can't even volunteer a few spare hours of my time at Oxfam Books without the pronoun bull

 

[SoulRebel]

What do you (general you) believe that transgender people are?


As I said before, the world is very dangerous for transgender women. If a man were to want to enter women's facilities I'm sure there are easier options. I don't think it's impossible that it could happen, just improbable.

That not at all what I said. I can give some context to my answer to your elderly women question if you'd like? I am a care worker. We have a lot of discussions around the balance between enabling residents to choose who provides them with personal care and whether that preference can be met. We haven't found the right answer in all the years I've been doing this work, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to provide a succinct one for you now.

I can.
I worked with vulnerable people - mainly people with a learning disability, challenging behaviour and acute mental health problems for over 30 years. I managed a domiciliary care agency before leaving the UK and can unequivocally say that when service users are asked who they would like to provide their personal care most women say that they want a woman to do this. Most women without a disability say the same so I think that this preference should be respected. Your phrase 'whether that preference can be met' is very telling as it shows a service being led by the provider rather than the service user. Incidentally, most men don't care but I suspect that this is due to them being used to care work being provided by women.

I find this whole issue very conflicting, I don't want to negate trans peoples' rights to enjoy a fulfilling life but I do want to protect women's rights.

I'll go back to one of one of my original comments on this issue, one that takes us away from toilets and changing rooms, but one that I think will have repercussions;- sport. When trans women start playing professional golf, football, tennis, cricket etc. then women have no chance.

 

[Mel Donte]

Your phrase 'whether that preference can be met' is very telling as it shows a service being led by the provider rather than the service user.

Yes, it often is. It's not the way that I want it to be. Only last week I assisted a resident with personal care who I know would rather be assisted by a white member of staff. We usually try to honour that preference but I was the only person available and she was wet and uncomfortable.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

This is a thread about gender issues. If an elderly woman asks to be cared for by a female carer (actual female, not a trans person), she shouldn't be told that trans women are women and she's a bigot. An elderly lady will most likely feel more comfortable with a woman for intimate care. An elderly lady is entitled to feel dignity and have her needs put first.

Race is different altogether. Are you trying to illustrate that someone demanding a white carer is the same as an elderly lady demanding a woman and not a trans identified person? Well you're wrong, they're not the same

 

[Mel Donte]

This is a thread about gender issues. If an elderly woman asks to be cared for by a female carer (actual female, not a trans person), she shouldn't be told that trans women are women and she's a bigot. An elderly lady will most likely feel more comfortable with a woman for intimate care. An elderly lady is entitled to feel dignity and have her needs put first.

Race is different altogether. Are you trying to illustrate that someone demanding a white carer is the same as an elderly lady demanding a woman and not a trans identified person? Well you're wrong, they're not the same

No, I was explaining my hesitation at giving an answer to the '80 year old woman and the obvious male' question, because who provides personal care can be a delicate and difficult topic.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Okay, apologies that I took you up wrong

 

[Libertine1975]

I've not seen it mentioned here but I've been noticing recently on Instagram people using the term womxn. I've not see the term mxn used anywhere. Most of the debate on this thread relates to the erasure of the term women and female only spaces to trans-women and not the other way around.

 

[mindlessness]

Fair Play for Women has two discussions on the topic of risk of violence and youth suicide rates worth looking in to.

How often are transgender people murdered? • Fair Play For Women

The highest transgender murder rates are in Central and South America. Europe is far safer, with no reported trans murders in the UK in 2016.

fairplayforwomen.com

Trans suicide facts and myths • Fair Play For Women

Every parent faced with a child claiming they think they are transgender will have heard the terrifying statistics about high suicide rates.

fairplayforwomen.com

I would also point out that we are currently in a time with high suicide rates among young men and men generally. Its a real cause for concern. Societal gender roles and pressure affect everyone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/ This paper looks at munder of transgender women in the US, and notes that the highest risk is for young trans women of colour. Often the trans victims are sex workers. Sex work is a profession where people are already at risk too generally, especially sex workers of colour.

 

[rosemarina]

I've not seen it mentioned here but I've been noticing recently on Instagram people using the term womxn. I've not see the term mxn used anywhere. Most of the debate on this thread relates to the erasure of the term women and female only spaces to trans-women and not the other way around.

Always. TRAs are mostly a men’s rights movement when it comes down to it.

 

[IndominusRex]

I wish people who believe TW to be the most persecuted and at risk group also were campaigning for the abolition of the sex trade that is responsible for 90% of TW murders but somehow they never are.