Appreciate you joining us @Lava to add I'd like to say the misnommer that trans men are men and vice-versa is silly in my view. People that are dysphoric have my uttermost sympathy, but they aren't plain old men/women, they're dysphoric males/females who identify with the opposite gender = they are what they say they are, trans men/women
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Well there are plenty of AGP males who are now under the trans umbrella and are "trans women are women". It happens a lot. Just yesterday you told me that these were cherry picked examples, now you're saying that it's "improbable"? Which is it?
Oh and in actual fact it does make it a lot easier for them to attack. People like you are more concerned with hurting a trans persons feelings than the feelings of an 80 year old woman who feels vulnerable by an obvious male. People like you think women/ girls don't deserve to be in pen free spaces. People like you think a woman complaining about a pen in changing rooms is in the wrong. So if anyone feels uneasy or threatened its going to be difficult to seek help because they might be deemed transphobic, bigoted, prejudiced
I don’t agree that the world is more dangerous for transwomen than for women at all. But do please research.
Men don’t just want to attack women and girls, they do attack, grape and kill women and girls... and now they have a totally valid excuse for walking into women’s and girls facilities. All they have to do is they’re trans, there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ level or stage of transition according to current gender ideology. So a man who has no desire to socially or medically transition can enter these facilities and because of the repercussions of misgendering, we can’t challenge him.
What I don't understand and have never received a satisfactory answer to is why, when there are conflicting serious views on this topic, people on that side think theirs must trump everyone else? I don't mind that some people think they're happy to share private spaces with trans people, genuinely good for you, you're entitled to that view. But I don't, I don't consent to it, and I'm entitled to mine, too. So why, in arbitrating these differing views, do these people think their view coming out on top must be the only answer? I'm not telling anyone 'you can't share a space with trans people' I'm simply asking you don't make me do it too. And I'm sorry, but if you think forcing your opinion on people who disagree and forcing a way of life on women who don't consent is perfectly fine, that makes you the bigot.
This!!
Coupled with the erasure of the words women/woman from cervical cancer literature, period products etc. While the word man is still used for prostate literature are my two biggest issues
Sorry to interupt your discussion ladies! But this sends a shiver down my spine and stops me from being able to use such facilities. I can't even tell you the anxiety I felt in my chest reading that post. Why should I - a survivor of grape and domestic violence have to come face to face with someone's flacid pen somewhere I would naturally consider to be a female only safe space for me to get changed. My grape support advocate never prepared me for this tit
Thought you might like to hear from someone who genuinley would not be able to emotionally handle that situation.
Exactly. I remember when JK shared her essay someone I know tweeted "I'm a survivor of DV and have no problem sharing my space with trans people, this woman doesn't speak for me". By the same token do you not realise *you* don't speak for everyone!
Thank you for this perspective. Honestly, it drives me up the wall when women are willing to sign away rights and our hard won spaces because "well it doesn't bother me"Sorry to interupt your discussion ladies! But this sends a shiver down my spine and stops me from being able to use such facilities. I can't even tell you the anxiety I felt in my chest reading that post. Why should I - a survivor of grape and domestic violence have to come face to face with someone's flacid pen somewhere I would naturally consider to be a female only safe space for me to get changed. My grape support advocate never prepared me for this tit
Thought you might like to hear from someone who genuinley would not be able to emotionally handle that situation.
That not at all what I said. I can give some context to my answer to your elderly women question if you'd like? I am a care worker. We have a lot of discussions around the balance between enabling residents to choose who provides them with personal care and whether that preference can be met. We haven't found the right answer in all the years I've been doing this work, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to provide a succinct one for you now.
Are you honestly saying that you believe that the world is a more dangerous place for trans women than actual women?
And please drop the “cis” crap.
I'm sorry but especially as a care worker I truly don't understand how you can think anything other than 'these are very old, very vulnerable women, and they should have their personal, intimate - probably embarrassing - care performed by whoever makes them the most comfortable'. It makes me feel unwell that you think any trans person's gender identity is more important than an elderly and vulnerable woman's right to be washed, be seen naked, whatever, by a woman if that's what they want.
As I said I'll need to do more research on it but going by, say, the amount of street harassment that I know that my trans female friends receive I would say that it probably is more dangerous than for cis women.
'Whoever makes them the most comfortable' isn't always available or on shift. Or it might be a person of a certain race or nationality. It's not always possible.
But girls receive street harassment from the minute they start developing boobs etc. And have to endure that their whole lives? Harassment isn't exclusive to transwomen.
Girls fear being attacked and many will walk home with keys between their fingers etc. More crimes are committed against women and girls than transwomen.
No, I'll use it when I need to differentiate
I have a friend who has been overweight pretty much his whole life and receives harassment in the street about his weight to the point where he sometimes does not leave the house. I have no doubt some trans people will experience the same harassment when going about their normal day and it will not be pleasant. However that is harassment which is night and day with actual violence against women
No trans person has been killed in the UK whilst sadly plenty of women have been and will continue to be
I fail to see how you would need to research that.
Trans statistics are being distorted by the reporting of hate incidents which are a complete waste of police time and also outright lies.
A prime example of the latter is suicide rates which was recently highlighted by the actress Ellen Page who know wants to be called Elliot who stated that 40% of Trans adults report attempting suicide. Now given a quick google search suggests that there are 200k-500k in the UK (according to the Govt Equalities office) this means that somewhere between 80k-200k attempt suicide? Total fabrication and this along with other dubious facts are used to shut down any criticism frequently.
trans women and women....there its not hard
@Lava With respect, using your friends anecdotal experience as a basis for your belief that trans people face more danger makes you look a little silly when there are actual facts and figures available
All of us women (no idea if you are or not) have many horror stories over the course of our lifetime where we've felt threatened and in danger. It's not the oppression Olympics. The bottom line is, more women are harmed than trans but you still believe women don't deserve private spaces?
All of us women (no idea if you are or not) have many horror stories over the course of our lifetime where we've felt threatened and in danger. It's not the oppression Olympics. The bottom line is, more women are harmed than trans but you still believe women don't deserve private spaces?
Do you have a source for either of these claims?
I think my main concern is not that transgender people exist but the dangerous identity poltics occurring where women are finding that the word woman, mother, female etc are being erased in the name of inclusivity and yet men still keep their identities, language etc without any push back. Any woman who says "hang on a minute, I am a woman, not a 'cervix haver', I am a breastfeeding mother, not a 'chest feeder'" are becoming increasingly dismissed as hateful, and told to shut up.
There should be ways to be respectful and inclusive of trans people and personally I think that should be third spaces in terms of toilets, healthcare settings that are sensitive to sex characteristics such as maternity wards, obgyn clinics, grape crisis centres, womens swimming sessions etc, and also by including/acknowledging trans people ALONGSIDE women in wording in literature, for example, cervical smear invitations should be explained as a routine service for women, AND people with cervixes, not just rebranded to 'people with cervixes'. When you try to include people, it shouldn't be to the detriment of a larger majority. It is offensive, imo, to expect all women to be okay with their identity being erased.
I also don't agree that people should be irreversibly lopping off or grafting on body parts when they are 13. I understand some people are dysphoric but when I was 13 I still half believed in Santa, I only just understood what a uterus was, and was only just getting to hear about the birds and the bees at school. It's definitely not an age to make a decision to take puberty blockers. Sure, transition as an adult, but maiming onself physically at a prepubescent age just strikes me as harmful, and children should be protected from that until they are truly cognicient of the consequences in balance to the perceived benefits. Also especially as we hear so many dysphoric girls are also autistic or have other mental health considerations like depersonisation that needs appropriate care and time to be supported. Who is to say they should undergo a sex change so young when it is very plausible that they have social difficulties and are learning to navigate themselves in the world? Why is a sex transition the definite solution to their difficulty? These people deserve proper time and support to come to that conclusion themselves without peer pressure or immediate affirmation.
I've said countless times in these threads it is not in my nature to hate anyone wilfully, but I also refuse to accept the absolute mysogyny facing women in this gender identity storm. Sometimes it hurts me to be perceived as on the "bad" side but I know in my heart if I was to turn my back on womens' sex based protections then I would be a traitor to myself. Just my opinion.
In an ideal world, we would recognise that there are adult human females, adult human males and adult human people who do not identify with M or F. All should have a right to a happy life. All should have a right to a life where they are not discriminated against my a patriarchy. One day hopefully trans people can exist without fear of violence, but so should all females (and males). If TRAs we see on social media stopped being so aggressive in taking over the identity of women, and respected womens' safe spaces, then perhaps trans people might find more people are willing to ensure they get what they need too, ALONGSIDE us.
Why can't TRAs in general respect women rather than try to change them?
At the end of the day I am just a scared woman wondering if in 10 years time I can still call myself a woman, or call myself a mother without someone calling me a b*itch for not saying 'birth giver', or whether my religious friends can carry on going to Tuesday Ladies swim night because they don't wish to swim with men, or whether young girls can go to school loos without some boys using self iD as a fun excuse to mess about. It seems so easy for that right to be abused for a laugh at that age.
I appreciate in an ideal world it's nice to say TWAW but in reality, saying TWAW causes a lot of confusion and infringes upon sex based rights of a lot of vulnerable women, imo.
I see so many women throw other women under the bus on this issue because they are personally comfortable with TWAW, but I say, when that statement is made, who is thinking of the elderly who have lived their whole lives fighting against mysogyny, and need ladies toilets in public places because they feel vulnerable? Who is thinking of some little girls who might grow up with persuasive friends and family who try to influence perception of their own sexual and gender identities? Who is thinking of the millions of women in countries where women are treated as barely second class citizens and would find the very few protections they have being taken away from them in the name of gender identities? Who is thinking of the women who are on waiting lists of months and months for smears or obgyn ops, worrying about conditions they are experiencing because a trans identifed 'woman' insists on having access to such tests when they don't have the requisite body parts? I appreciate this might be a very small minority but with growing entitlement, who knows how many waiting lists grow, to pander to feelings?! Who is thinking of the women who don't want to discuss intimate female anatomical concerns with a GP who is either a man, or a trans identifed woman, because inately, a woman might feel more comfortable talking and being examined by a woman?
How far does TWAW go? Are women not allowed to raise awareness and money for ovarian cancer charities, for example because TWAW might feel left out? How can a man be female if they don't have the requisite body part? Gender and sex therefore are different things. A man can dress. Like a woman but is not physically a woman.
I could go on but there are so many sex (antomical, science) based reasons why many people may feel intimidated by the idea of safe spaces being shared by trans identified women. Some religious, some social, some medical or sexual. Why should women be called TERFs for wanting to keep what our mothers have fought so hard for the past 200 years? Men have been protected for millenia, whereas women have only really been somewhat respected and protected the past 200. I just can't accept that being erased now. It just feels too much like "be a dear and just let it happen", "be a dear, don't make a fuss".
I know myself and know it would break me to go around IRL telling trans people hateful things, I'm a nice person and care too much sometimes about being 'good'. However it is possible that most people that might be called TERFs are just people who want to be respected as women.
Maybe one day we'll all be cyborgs with circuit boards and none of this will matter, but until then, whilst society penalises me systematically for being female I will continue to speak up to keep what we already have.
TLDR it is possible to be wary of the erosion of womens sex based rights whilst not actually hating people. We are not all bigots.
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just feel so upset about it all. I feel so gaslit by the 'TERF' retort that so many sling at women but not men.
There should be ways to be respectful and inclusive of trans people and personally I think that should be third spaces in terms of toilets, healthcare settings that are sensitive to sex characteristics such as maternity wards, obgyn clinics, grape crisis centres, womens swimming sessions etc, and also by including/acknowledging trans people ALONGSIDE women in wording in literature, for example, cervical smear invitations should be explained as a routine service for women, AND people with cervixes, not just rebranded to 'people with cervixes'. When you try to include people, it shouldn't be to the detriment of a larger majority. It is offensive, imo, to expect all women to be okay with their identity being erased.
I also don't agree that people should be irreversibly lopping off or grafting on body parts when they are 13. I understand some people are dysphoric but when I was 13 I still half believed in Santa, I only just understood what a uterus was, and was only just getting to hear about the birds and the bees at school. It's definitely not an age to make a decision to take puberty blockers. Sure, transition as an adult, but maiming onself physically at a prepubescent age just strikes me as harmful, and children should be protected from that until they are truly cognicient of the consequences in balance to the perceived benefits. Also especially as we hear so many dysphoric girls are also autistic or have other mental health considerations like depersonisation that needs appropriate care and time to be supported. Who is to say they should undergo a sex change so young when it is very plausible that they have social difficulties and are learning to navigate themselves in the world? Why is a sex transition the definite solution to their difficulty? These people deserve proper time and support to come to that conclusion themselves without peer pressure or immediate affirmation.
I've said countless times in these threads it is not in my nature to hate anyone wilfully, but I also refuse to accept the absolute mysogyny facing women in this gender identity storm. Sometimes it hurts me to be perceived as on the "bad" side but I know in my heart if I was to turn my back on womens' sex based protections then I would be a traitor to myself. Just my opinion.
In an ideal world, we would recognise that there are adult human females, adult human males and adult human people who do not identify with M or F. All should have a right to a happy life. All should have a right to a life where they are not discriminated against my a patriarchy. One day hopefully trans people can exist without fear of violence, but so should all females (and males). If TRAs we see on social media stopped being so aggressive in taking over the identity of women, and respected womens' safe spaces, then perhaps trans people might find more people are willing to ensure they get what they need too, ALONGSIDE us.
Why can't TRAs in general respect women rather than try to change them?
At the end of the day I am just a scared woman wondering if in 10 years time I can still call myself a woman, or call myself a mother without someone calling me a b*itch for not saying 'birth giver', or whether my religious friends can carry on going to Tuesday Ladies swim night because they don't wish to swim with men, or whether young girls can go to school loos without some boys using self iD as a fun excuse to mess about. It seems so easy for that right to be abused for a laugh at that age.
I appreciate in an ideal world it's nice to say TWAW but in reality, saying TWAW causes a lot of confusion and infringes upon sex based rights of a lot of vulnerable women, imo.
I see so many women throw other women under the bus on this issue because they are personally comfortable with TWAW, but I say, when that statement is made, who is thinking of the elderly who have lived their whole lives fighting against mysogyny, and need ladies toilets in public places because they feel vulnerable? Who is thinking of some little girls who might grow up with persuasive friends and family who try to influence perception of their own sexual and gender identities? Who is thinking of the millions of women in countries where women are treated as barely second class citizens and would find the very few protections they have being taken away from them in the name of gender identities? Who is thinking of the women who are on waiting lists of months and months for smears or obgyn ops, worrying about conditions they are experiencing because a trans identifed 'woman' insists on having access to such tests when they don't have the requisite body parts? I appreciate this might be a very small minority but with growing entitlement, who knows how many waiting lists grow, to pander to feelings?! Who is thinking of the women who don't want to discuss intimate female anatomical concerns with a GP who is either a man, or a trans identifed woman, because inately, a woman might feel more comfortable talking and being examined by a woman?
How far does TWAW go? Are women not allowed to raise awareness and money for ovarian cancer charities, for example because TWAW might feel left out? How can a man be female if they don't have the requisite body part? Gender and sex therefore are different things. A man can dress. Like a woman but is not physically a woman.
I could go on but there are so many sex (antomical, science) based reasons why many people may feel intimidated by the idea of safe spaces being shared by trans identified women. Some religious, some social, some medical or sexual. Why should women be called TERFs for wanting to keep what our mothers have fought so hard for the past 200 years? Men have been protected for millenia, whereas women have only really been somewhat respected and protected the past 200. I just can't accept that being erased now. It just feels too much like "be a dear and just let it happen", "be a dear, don't make a fuss".
I know myself and know it would break me to go around IRL telling trans people hateful things, I'm a nice person and care too much sometimes about being 'good'. However it is possible that most people that might be called TERFs are just people who want to be respected as women.
Maybe one day we'll all be cyborgs with circuit boards and none of this will matter, but until then, whilst society penalises me systematically for being female I will continue to speak up to keep what we already have.
TLDR it is possible to be wary of the erosion of womens sex based rights whilst not actually hating people. We are not all bigots.
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, I just feel so upset about it all. I feel so gaslit by the 'TERF' retort that so many sling at women but not men.
well.. have you looked at the articles i've sent your way?
Yes. But there are a lot of aspects that need looking at in order to build an accurate picture - numbers of trans people, what definition of trans we're even using, underreporting of crimes against minority groups etc.
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