Gender Discussions #3

[Zenchick101]

No. Which is a shame because I really did come on here looking for a discussion. There don't seem to be many places to discuss viewpoints that fall anywhere between 'trans women are men who want to threaten our identity and hurt us' and 'if you're even the slightest bit gender non-conforming you should get on hormones straight away' and the polarisation doesn't help anyone (hey, it's almost as though binary viewpoints are bad news ). I guess I'm going to have to finally sign up for a bloody Reddit account so I can join r/truscum, as though I don't already waste enough time on the internet.

I don't see it as "trans women are men who want to threaten our identity and hurt us" but fair enough, my problem is that you seem to want to conflate dysphoric individuals with others who adopt the trans label and seperate them when it suits you. thought the article showing 26 dead trans people and all black trans women I thought was interesting in the way data and information can be interpreted a different way dead trans women vs dead black people. Nice to not have someone from an opposing view point shout here for a change. I'll also stick to my view since you haven't provided any articles contradicting the numerous articles you were shown here.

homophobes and racists not hiding in plain sight at all /s

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I saw something from Tumblr that said detrans women have mutilated bodies.

So detrans women who likely haven’t had surgery have mutilated bodies, but a trans man who chops their bits off and cuts a piece of flesh from their arm and fashions it into an imitation pen is.... not mutilated? Can these people not hear themselves? I’m not one to go round saying people have mutilated bodies, but you can’t seriously call a detrans woman mutilated whilst simultaneously acting like a trans man with a fake pen and a chunk of arm missing is fine and healthy.

Trans ideology is misogyny and homophobia rolled into one.

 

[Zenchick101]

I saw something from Tumblr that said detrans women have mutilated bodies.

So detrans women who likely haven’t had surgery have mutilated bodies, but a trans man who chops their bits off and cuts a piece of flesh from their arm and fashions it into an imitation pen is.... not mutilated? Can these people not hear themselves? I’m not one to go round saying people have mutilated bodies, but you can’t seriously call a detrans woman mutilated whilst simultaneously acting like a trans man with a fake pen and a chunk of arm missing is fine and healthy.

Trans ideology is misogyny and homophobia rolled into one.

+racism. they use "colonial" and "colonisation" always to insunate that people were savages who didn't know the differences between men and women before colonizers came and educated them.

 

[HockyRorror]

I wish people who believe TW to be the most persecuted and at risk group also were campaigning for the abolition of the sex trade that is responsible for 90% of TW murders but somehow they never are.

I think that can be down to something to do with the fetishistic nature of it all. “Sex work is work” and all of that. Many have a rather pornified outlook of what “being a woman” is. A quick look at some Twitter accounts is quite revealing

 

[Imainlylurk]

No. Which is a shame because I really did come on here looking for a discussion. There don't seem to be many places to discuss viewpoints that fall anywhere between 'trans women are men who want to threaten our identity and hurt us' and 'if you're even the slightest bit gender non-conforming you should get on hormones straight away' and the polarisation doesn't help anyone (hey, it's almost as though binary viewpoints are bad news ). I guess I'm going to have to finally sign up for a bloody Reddit account so I can join r/truscum, as though I don't already waste enough time on the internet.

I hate the polarisation aspect too. If you check out the podcast Blocked and Reported, and the associated subreddit, they have some reasonable, nuanced discussions on this issue.

 

[Zenchick101]

I hate the polarisation aspect too. If you check out the podcast Blocked and Reported, and the associated subreddit, they have some reasonable, nuanced discussions on this issue.

I think many here do too, thing is no one brings hard evidence to counter anything said here.

 

[Glortard]

I wish people who believe TW to be the most persecuted and at risk group also were campaigning for the abolition of the sex trade that is responsible for 90% of TW murders but somehow they never are.

Funny you should mention that as one of vocal supporters of trans rights in Scotland who until recently was also the woman's convenor for the SNP was also a firm believer in "sex work is work". Thankfully she was ousted and also failed to secure the nomination for the Scottish Parliament elections.

I know people that have worked with women that have been involved in sex work and its a horrible life where many of them now suffer from things like PTSD and memory loss from violence. Yet you still have misguided people who label themselves feminists and supporters of minorities who know nothing about the actual sex trade but stand up and support it.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I hate the polarisation aspect too. If you check out the podcast Blocked and Reported, and the associated subreddit, they have some reasonable, nuanced discussions on this issue.

There is no polarisation aspect here. Many of us feel we've sleep walked into a nightmare with gender ideology and that has been discussed at length over multiple threads. We don't have a hatred of trans people, we are just concerned with many, many aspects of gender ideology and that has been said time and time again.

If you feel that the thread is lacking nuance, why not contribute some nuance yourself? Unfortunately, for some areas there is no nuance.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

I know people that have worked with women that have been involved in sex work and its a horrible life where many of them now suffer from things like PTSD and memory loss from violence. Yet you still have misguided people who label themselves feminists and supporters of minorities who know nothing about the actual sex trade but stand up and support it.

They acknowledge that if a group of people is disproportionately involved with the sex industry (including Black and Indigenous women, disabled women, and they count transwomen among this) it indicates this group is oppressed in society. But then they say "sex work is work!", "wanting to abolish the sex industry is hateful" and "it's not harmful, it's safe if you 'screen', most of us aren't heroin addicts with a violent pimp, most women alleged trafficked are consensual 'migrant sex workers' ..."

 

[Zenchick101]

They acknowledge that if a group of people is disproportionately involved with the sex industry (including Black and Indigenous women, disabled women, and they count transwomen among this) it indicates this group is oppressed in society. But then they say "sex work is work!", "wanting to abolish the sex industry is hateful" and "it's not harmful, it's safe if you 'screen', most of us aren't heroin addicts with a violent pimp, most women alleged trafficked are consensual 'migrant sex workers' ..."

consensual 'migrant sex workers' that seems like an oxymoron. (Might be using that wrong I'm ESL).

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

consensual 'migrant sex workers' that seems like an oxymoron. (Might be using that wrong I'm ESL).

It is, basically, but a lot of pro-"sex work" (and pro-TRA) activists want us to believe that these women aren't really trafficked; they have simply chosen to go to another country to do "sex work." Since most countries do not offer visas for prostitution what they're saying is "trafficking doesn't exist, these women have just voluntarily broken immigration laws." An example of compassion for us all

 

[Narc ahoy]

@Lava , why have you conveniently ignored the following question, despite answering all the others:

What is your opinion of the fact that around 20% of the men's prison population are inside for sex offenses, while around 48% of transwomen are inside for sex offenses?

A further question:

If Group A as a whole are strong; prone to committing sex crimes and violence; and have the ability to grape and impregnate.

And Group B are three times weaker than group A; are prone to being targeted by A's sex crimes and violence; and are reproductively vulnerable to A; therefore requiring safe spaces from Group A in order to access society,

If Group C are equally strong as A; equally as prone to committing sex crimes and violence against Group B; and 80-90% retain the ability to grape/impregnate Group B.

Why should Group C be treated as a part of Group B?


Conservative response: Group C members should accept they are part of A. Group C should be disbanded.

Liberal response: The main difference between Group A and Group C is that C's do not want to be A's, and wish to be B's. Group A sometimes attacks Group C for this. Therefore Group B should pretend that Group C were actually Group B all along, allowing them into their safe spaces. Group B should also pretend that there is no risk in this, as this would prove that C's are not actually B's, thus destroying the pretense. It is Group B's fault that Group A attacks C's, because if B pretended harder, A would surely be convinced that C's really were B's.

Rational response: Group C should remain as its own separate group, and with their multi-billion dollar funding, should create their own safe spaces.

 

[Zenchick101]

@Lava , why have you conveniently ignored the following question, despite answering all the others:

What is your opinion of the fact that around 20% of the men's prison population are inside for sex offenses, while around 48% of transwomen are inside for sex offenses?

A further question:

If Group A as a whole are strong; prone to committing sex crimes and violence; and have the ability to grape and impregnate.

And Group B are three times weaker than group A; are prone to being targeted by A's sex crimes and violence; and are reproductively vulnerable to A; therefore requiring safe spaces from Group A in order to access society,

If Group C are equally strong as A; equally as prone to committing sex crimes and violence against Group B; and 80-90% retain the ability to grape/impregnate Group B.

Why should Group C be treated as a part of Group B?


Conservative response: Group C members should accept they are part of A. Group C should be disbanded.

Liberal response: The main difference between Group A and Group C is that C's do not want to be A's, and wish to be B's. Group A sometimes attacks Group C for this. Therefore Group B should pretend that Group C were actually Group B all along, allowing them into their safe spaces. Group B should also pretend that there is no risk in this, as this would prove that C's are not actually B's, thus destroying the pretense. It is Group B's fault that Group A attacks C's, because if B pretended harder, A would surely be convinced that C's really were B's.

Rational response: Group C should remain as its own separate group, and with their multi-billion dollar funding, should create their own safe spaces.

I doubt you'll get an answer. There's very pertinent points here that are conveniently ignored. That's what happens when you base your opinions on fuzzy feelings.

 

[Mel Donte]

@Lava , why have you conveniently ignored the following question, despite answering all the others:

What is your opinion of the fact that around 20% of the men's prison population are inside for sex offenses, while around 48% of transwomen are inside for sex offenses?

My opinion is that it is not a fact

How many transgender inmates are there?

Reality Check looks at claims around transgender prisoners and their convictions.

www.bbc.co.uk

And I'm sorry that I missed your question, as you may have seen I've been kind of bombarded with them and it's difficult being the one person posting from 'the other side'.

 

[Imainlylurk]

There is no polarisation aspect here. Many of us feel we've sleep walked into a nightmare with gender ideology and that has been discussed at length over multiple threads. We don't have a hatred of trans people, we are just concerned with many, many aspects of gender ideology and that has been said time and time again.

If you feel that the thread is lacking nuance, why not contribute some nuance yourself? Unfortunately, for some areas there is no nuance.

How can you say it's not polarised?! This is a contentious subject taking place on the internet... of course it's polarised. The case of prisoners and prisons is exactly an example where there is a need for nuance and where there are no easy answers. I do believe there is a risk of convicted sex offenders identifying as female in order to gain entry into a women's prison (which would increase when it comes to self ID). I don't believe that anything like the majority of trans people, or even trans prisoners, are sex offenders. It's a case of balancing harms and risks and I think there is no simple solution in this case.

 

[Zenchick101]

How can you say it's not polarised?! This is a contentious subject taking place on the internet... of course it's polarised. The case of prisoners and prisons is exactly an example where there is a need for nuance and where there are no easy answers. I do believe there is a risk of convicted sex offenders identifying as female in order to gain entry into a women's prison (which would increase when it comes to self ID). I don't believe that anything like the majority of trans people, or even trans prisoners, are sex offenders. It's a case of balancing harms and risks and I think there is no simple solution in this case.

I'm sorry but transwomen who still have their pen intact should not be in a women's prison. End of, the fact that there's been assaults and rapes which wouldn't have happened if that hadn't been allowed and has literally 0 chance of happening again if it's not allowed proves it in my book.
If need be, have a seperate wing for them. Men have been grape and killed in prison before, should men be sent to a women's prison too?

Why wouldn't male inmates pretend to be trans and file for transfer into female prisons, I'm not naive enough to think that inmates who are lifers, or even in prison for decades want an opportunity to grape, assault or hey even find a willing female inmate. Even more would be jumping at the chance if it means not having to transition and just stating "I'm a woman".

 

[HockyRorror]

A

How can you say it's not polarised?! This is a contentious subject taking place on the internet... of course it's polarised. The case of prisoners and prisons is exactly an example where there is a need for nuance and where there are no easy answers. I do believe there is a risk of convicted sex offenders identifying as female in order to gain entry into a women's prison (which would increase when it comes to self ID). I don't believe that anything like the majority of trans people, or even trans prisoners, are sex offenders. It's a case of balancing harms and risks and I think there is no simple solution in this case.

The simple solution is to not put men in women’s prisons, like women are not put in men’s prisons. The stalemate is those who believe trans women are women and trans men are men and those who don’t. But humans can’t change sex, so..

Why wouldn't male inmates pretend to be trans and file for transfer into female prisons, I'm not naive enough to think that inmates who are lifers, or even in prison for decades want an opportunity to grape, assault or hey even find a willing female inmate. Even more would be jumping at the chance if it means not having to transition and just stating "I'm a woman".

It does happen. Even because they think women have an easier time in a women’s prison and they think they will be able to handle it better than a men’s and no thoughts of grape, assault or sex involved at all. But it’s all relative because prisons should be sex segregated, end of, no discussion, no nuance, as far as I’m concerned. Idk how that will fit with the laws surrounding GRC’s but facing facts, the majority of trans prisoners in prison do not have one.

 

[mcfeez]

There are instances of transgender people being subject to higher levels of grape and sexual assault when assigned to mens prisons - surely that also has to be taken into account when having these discussions.

 

[Glortard]

My opinion is that it is not a fact

How many transgender inmates are there?

Reality Check looks at claims around transgender prisoners and their convictions.

www.bbc.co.uk

And I'm sorry that I missed your question, as you may have seen I've been kind of bombarded with them and it's difficult being the one person posting from 'the other side'.

So the BBC article showed that trans prisoners are more likely to be there for a sexual offence compared to the general population. It tried to wriggle out of that by saying that there may be trans prisoners on shorter sentences however that is true also of non trans

So we can conclude from the figures released in England for those that have had a case conference....if they are trans they are more than twice as likely to be there for sexual offences than non trans

Typical of Scotland not to release the figures sadly.

 

[Zenchick101]

There are instances of transgender people being subject to higher levels of grape and sexual assault when assigned to mens prisons - surely that also has to be taken into account when having these discussions.

Do you have an article or can you provide any proof, any numbers stating that trans women are at a higher risk then men in men's prisons?

I'm asking you for numbers because if it turns out men are more or in just as much risk why shouldn't they be housed with women too?

Also a seperate wing would not put women in danger from a potential rapist and also keep transwomen safe from sexual assault.

I'm sorry but pen havers with pen havers because it removes said risk for female inmates 100%. Otherwise it's a transferance of risk in my book.