Gender Discussions #3

[Mel Donte]

@Lava Was thinking about your prejudice and bigotry comment from yesterday and I have some genuine questions:

Do you believe that women and teenage girls should be allowed the right to have pen free spaces?

Should we tell young girls to not bother with instinct or ignore feeling uncomfortable if there's an obvious male because that's just bigotry or prejudice?

If an 80 year old woman feels uncomfortable with an obvious male in a private space does that make her a prejudiced bigot?

It's tricky for me to answer questions that are posed with the base assumption that trans women are trying to infiltrate female spaces in order to harm them, but I'll try.
1. No
2. All children should be taught what behaviour is appropriate and what is inappropriate, and this includes sexual behaviour from adults. All children should be encouraged to discuss things that make them uncomfortable or scared with a trusted adult. Some of those fears will turn out to have a basis in fact, some will not. I do not believe that a fear of trans people as a group is something that should be encouraged in children.
3. I don't know, possibly.

Maybe if said issues were throughly examined we could put aside the transvestites, agp males and other fetishists, trenders, who say they're trans without being dysphoric?

Yeah, I'd like to discuss things like that which is why I'm on this thread. My personal belief is that people who don't experience dysphoria are not transgender. I think that, for example, Reddit egg culture is damaging in that tells anyone with any form of gender non-conforming behaviour that they are trans, which I don't think is true or healthy.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@Lava I certainly don't believe every trans person is trying to infiltrate private spaces but I do believe women and especially teenage girls should have access to their own private spaces. Thank you for being honest about the fact that you don't believe they deserve their own private spaces.

It's stories like below that are doing nothing to change my mind that women should have their own private spaces. And it's not a cherry picked example, it's common. Many, like you, believe women don't deserve private spaces and that it's transphobic or bigoted or prejudiced to say anything or complain

 

[CheshireLove]

It's tricky for me to answer questions that are posed with the base assumption that trans women are trying to infiltrate female spaces in order to harm them, but I'll try.
1. No
2. All children should be taught what behaviour is appropriate and what is inappropriate, and this includes sexual behaviour from adults. All children should be encouraged to discuss things that make them uncomfortable or scared with a trusted adult. Some of those fears will turn out to have a basis in fact, some will not. I do not believe that a fear of trans people as a group is something that should be encouraged in children.
3. I don't know, possibly.

I must say I find your answer to the first question rather shocking. Can I ask, given your answer, do you advocate for the removal of single sex spaces altogether in that case? I really am surprised you feel that women and girls don’t deserve to have their own pen free spaces.

I don’t feel those questions were asked on the assumption that “transwomen are trying to infiltrate spaces to harm”. I certainly don’t think that at all and I’m sure many others here feel the same way. The ever broadening umbrella of gender ideology and the loose criteria for self identification is what I have an issue with.

 

[Mel Donte]

@Lava I certainly don't believe every trans person is trying to infiltrate private spaces but I do believe women and especially teenage girls should have access to their own private spaces. Thank you for being honest about the fact that you don't believe they deserve their own private spaces.

It's stories like below that are doing nothing to change my mind that women should have their own private spaces. And it's not a cherry picked example, it's common. Many, like you, believe women don't deserve private spaces and that it's transphobic or bigoted or prejudiced to say anything or complain

I think that trans women are women and therefore should be allowed into women's spaces.

In the Reddit screenshot I don't think that the user is doing anything wrong if other women are naked in there.

 

[HockyRorror]

Use of Jack's former name is discouraged in the JM threads though? And people don't tend to directly question whether Jack is non binary, probably for the same reason that her claims of having done sex work, being a victim of domestic violence and grape, being an alcoholic etc etc aren't thoroughly examined - these issues are so sensitive that subjecting claims to scrutiny feels wrong. Timelines and other things on the periphery of the issues are sometimes discussed. With the photo you've posted above a lot of people have rightly pointed out that it does massively reinforce a gender binary.

Her former name is just that. Not a “deadname”. I was talking about her “Mx” phase which is (or was when I was active in them) routinely discussed, as were the claims of her being an alcoholic, as were the claims of her being a former sex worker. These are easily searchable, this forum has a search feature where these can be easily searched...

I think that trans women are women and therefore should be allowed into women's spaces.

In the Reddit screenshot I don't think that the user is doing anything wrong if other women are naked in there.

So am I right to assume that, given the reddit screenshot story and your agreement with them, you believe that some women have penises and some men have vaginas?

 

[Zenchick101]

It's tricky for me to answer questions that are posed with the base assumption that trans women are trying to infiltrate female spaces in order to harm them, but I'll try.
1. No
2. All children should be taught what behaviour is appropriate and what is inappropriate, and this includes sexual behaviour from adults. All children should be encouraged to discuss things that make them uncomfortable or scared with a trusted adult. Some of those fears will turn out to have a basis in fact, some will not. I do not believe that a fear of trans people as a group is something that should be encouraged in children.
3. I don't know, possibly.


Yeah, I'd like to discuss things like that which is why I'm on this thread. My personal belief is that people who don't experience dysphoria are not transgender. I think that, for example, Reddit egg culture is damaging in that tells anyone with any form of gender non-conforming behaviour that they are trans, which I don't think is true or healthy.

Ok so we're establishing some foundations of an interesting conversation here. Building on what you agreed with me on, since you can't even attempt to have this kind of conversation with most people IRL right now, how do I as a woman tell the difference between a dysphoric transwoman, and an AGP (etc) perv who also identifies as a transwoman and gets naked in front of me in a changing room and expects me to have no problem getting naked in front of them?

Since any and all discussion is prohibited in society, how do you tell the difference between the dysphoric teen boy who wants to transition and the one who says i'm trans (since you can't question that) to see the girls naked?

I think that trans women are women and therefore should be allowed into women's spaces.

In the Reddit screenshot I don't think that the user is doing anything wrong if other women are naked in there.

how about this, should trans men be sent to the men's prison, since trans women are sent to women's prisons?

I must say I find your answer to the first question rather shocking. Can I ask, given your answer, do you advocate for the removal of single sex spaces altogether in that case? I really am surprised you feel that women and girls don’t deserve to have their own pen free spaces.

I don’t feel those questions were asked on the assumption that “transwomen are trying to infiltrate spaces to harm”. I certainly don’t think that at all and I’m sure many others here feel the same way. The ever broadening umbrella of gender ideology and the loose criteria for self identification is what I have an issue with.

if the broadening definition of trans literally means anyone who identifies as a woman/man and that's it, with no concrete tangible proof, explaination? well it's utterly meaningless. I'm now a 6'3 well hung, jacked, loaded white guy - I might identify as such but that hasn't changed the actual concrete reality of my existence.

 

[Mel Donte]

Her former name is just that. Not a “deadname”.

I'd say that's a slightly grey area. Her name change came before she came out as non binary but it may have been linked to her gender expression.

So am I right to assume that, given the reddit screenshot story and your agreement with them, you believe that some women have penises and some men have vaginas?

Yes

Ok so we're establishing some foundations of an interesting conversation here. Building on what you agreed with me on, since you can't even attempt to have this kind of conversation with most people IRL right now, how do I as a woman tell the difference between a dysphoric transwoman, and an AGP (etc) perv who also identifies as a transwoman and gets naked in front of me in a changing room and expects me to have no problem getting naked in front of them?

Since any and all discussion is prohibited in society, how do you tell the difference between the dysphoric teen boy who wants to transition and the one who says i'm trans (since you can't question that) to see the girls naked?

You'd tell the difference by how they acted. If they're keeping to themselves and just getting changed vs staring, overt sexual behaviour etc.

Existing in the world as a trans woman can be extremely difficult and dangerous, especially for those who don't 'pass'. So I really don't think that men pretending to be trans women in order to see naked cis women is something to worry about.

 

[HockyRorror]

I'd say that's a slightly grey area. Her name change came before she came out as non binary but it may have been linked to her gender expression.


Yes

“May have” is speculation. The name change before the non binary coming out did happen.

And thank you for your answer. I was just interested in what sort of beliefs you have if continuing to debate on this subject in good faith. You are someone that believes that some men have vaginas and some women have penises. So we are at a level akin to someone that believes some grass is blue and some sky is green.

 

[Mel Donte]

“May have” is speculation. The name change before the non binary coming out did happen.

And thank you for your answer. I was just interested in what sort of beliefs you have if continuing to debate on this subject in good faith. You are someone that believes that some men have vaginas and some women have penises. So we are at a level akin to someone that believes some grass is blue and some sky is green.

I saw 'may have' because I vaguely remember her saying something like 'the name should have been a clue' or similar when she came out.

You're right, it is probably pointless of me to try and have a discussion with someone who doesn't believe that transgender people exist. I just assumed that the gender discussions thread would be a place in which to have, y'know... discussions about gender.

 

[HoGi]

I saw 'may have' because I vaguely remember her saying something like 'the name should have been a clue' or similar when she came out.

You're right, it is probably pointless of me to try and have a discussion with someone who doesn't believe that transgender people exist. I just assumed that the gender discussions thread would be a place in which to have, y'know... discussions about gender.

I don't think I'm alone in saying we don't think they "don't exist" we aren't talking about the tooth fairy here after all

 

[HockyRorror]

I saw 'may have' because I vaguely remember her saying something like 'the name should have been a clue' or similar when she came out.

You're right, it is probably pointless of me to try and have a discussion with someone who doesn't believe that transgender people exist. I just assumed that the gender discussions thread would be a place in which to have, y'know... discussions about gender.

We are very much aware that transgender people exist. We wouldn’t have such a long running thread on something that doesn’t exist.

If by that you mean we don’t believe that some men have vaginas and some women have penises, you’re right, we don’t. I personally find it pointless to debate with someone that does believe that, but I’m willing to try. The reason I asked the question was to understand what sort of level any debate would be at. Your reply answered that.

I’d like you to stay. I am interested in having such discussion and it’s always interesting to hear from those “on the other side”. You haven’t been rude, aggressive or insulting from what I’ve seen so, hand on heart, don’t feel as though you are not welcome on this thread. But I do think that the “it’s pointless” comment is a bit of an easy get-out IMO.

 

[Mel Donte]

We are very much aware that transgender people exist. We wouldn’t have such a long running thread on something that doesn’t exist.

If by that you mean we don’t believe that some men have vaginas and some women have penises, you’re right, we don’t. I personally find it pointless to debate with someone that does believe that, but I’m willing to try. The reason I asked the question was to understand what sort of level any debate would be at. Your reply answered that.

I’d like you to stay. I am interested in having such discussion and it’s always interesting to hear from those “on the other side”. You haven’t been rude, aggressive or insulting from what I’ve seen so, hand on heart, don’t feel as though you are not welcome on this thread. But I do think that the “it’s pointless” comment is a bit of an easy get-out IMO.

You compared my beliefs to 'a level akin to someone that believes some grass is blue and some sky is green'. I took that to mean that you had no interested in a respectful debate, thus making the discussion pointless. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that.

 

[CheshireLove]

You compared my beliefs to 'a level akin to someone that believes some grass is blue and some sky is green'. I took that to mean that you had no interested in a respectful debate, thus making the discussion pointless. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that.

Can I ask, what makes you so certain that men won’t use gender identity as as “excuse” of sorts to enter women’s facilities?

 

[HockyRorror]

You compared my beliefs to 'a level akin to someone that believes some grass is blue and some sky is green'. I took that to mean that you had no interested in a respectful debate, thus making the discussion pointless. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that.

That’s not what I meant at all but there’s no need to apologise for misinterpreting, I do it all the time. What I meant was that if a debate was to continue it should be noted that, from the ground up, it’s with someone that believes something that isn’t factually (in this case, biologically) correct. No disrespect meant.

 

[Mel Donte]

What do you (general you) believe that transgender people are?

Can I ask, what makes you so certain that men won’t use gender identity as as “excuse” of sorts to enter women’s facilities?

As I said before, the world is very dangerous for transgender women. If a man were to want to enter women's facilities I'm sure there are easier options. I don't think it's impossible that it could happen, just improbable.

 

[CheshireLove]

What do you (general you) believe that transgender people are?


As I said before, the world is very dangerous for transgender women. If a man were to want to enter women's facilities I'm sure there are easier options. I don't think it's impossible that it could happen, just improbable.

Okay, thanks for answering.

I personally think it’s entirely probable that men will use the excuse that they identify as a woman as a ‘get out’ of being challenged. Just out of interest, what do you think the ‘easier options’ are?

While I’m aware of violence against transwomen, is it not overwhelmingly men who commit this against them?

I believe there is more risk to women and girls by getting rid of single sex spaces for them and removing the possibility of challenging a man for fear of misgendering, than there is of a transwomen being hurt in a women’s/girls facility.

 

[rosemarina]

The world is much more dangerous for actual women.

 

[Zenchick101]

I'd say that's a slightly grey area. Her name change came before she came out as non binary but it may have been linked to her gender expression.


Yes


You'd tell the difference by how they acted. If they're keeping to themselves and just getting changed vs staring, overt sexual behaviour etc.

Existing in the world as a trans woman can be extremely difficult and dangerous, especially for those who don't 'pass'. So I really don't think that men pretending to be trans women in order to see naked cis women is something to worry about.

Not every perv is as obvious as what you're describing? how about Ted Bundy, p, murderer, rapist, no one suspected anything because he behaved and was perceived as a stand up guy. Yeah I'd argue it's harder being a woman then a trans woman in the world. In France more then 100 women die every year due to domestic violence alone, trans women? a handful. also whenever an article pops up, it's always a foreign prostitute in bois de boulogne(known as the woods to pay prostitutes for sex) in paris

This article states that in 2019 22 trans and non-conforming people have been killed so far, it also mentions that since 2013 150 killings has been documented?, 331 across the globe in 2018oct - 2019sept and 3,300 since 2008.

*also notice how all the trans women pictured are black, vs 2 what looks like queer/white trans men. Maybe it's because they're trans and maybe it's because black people in general are unfortunately at a lower economic status in the states then every other demographic, areas that are more dangerous and prone to gun violence - why aren't more white trans women killed? if it's so dangerous for them? (not that I would wish that on anyone - no tit - but the evidence isn't as simple as some people make it out to be)

Transgender Day of Remembrance: At least 22 trans people killed in 2019

"On one hand, it's amazing to see how big the event has grown, but at the same time when all is said and done, we are still being killed."

www.nbcnews.com

In the states 3 women die/day because of domestic violence

Each Day, Three Women Die because of Domestic Violence - NNEDV

During a visit home a few years ago, an old friend of my mother’s dropped by. As we talked, the conversation turned to her poor health. “It’s the stress, you know,” she said. “Stress can take such a toll on your body. I never really recovered after my daughter passed away.” “What happened?” I...

nnedv.org

went off on a tangent but overall women are killed at higher numbers then trans people.

Also men pretending to be transwomen in order to harm women is not something to worry about? I mean you just agreed with me that AGPs and pervs are appropriating the trans label..

in 2019 here's a chart about the amount of men and women killed, heck according to this good old men are killed more then women overall in the states.

Murder victims in the U.S. by race| Statista

In 2024, the FBI reported that there were 8,158 Black murder victims in the United States and 6,753 white murder victims.

www.statista.com

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@Lava I'm sorry but you're spreading misinformation.

The world is far more dangerous for women. Far more women have been killed in the UK than trans this year. 0 trans people have been killed in the UK this year. The figures of high trans murders come from Latin America and there is no evidence to suggest they were murdered because they were trans- they're often sex workers from disadvantaged backgrounds and women are murdered in that environment too

 

[Mel Donte]

@Lava I'm sorry but you're spreading misinformation.

The world is far more dangerous for women. Far more women have been killed in the UK than trans this year. 0 trans people have been killed in the UK this year. The figures of high trans murders come from Latin America and there is no evidence to suggest they were murdered because they were trans- they're often sex workers from disadvantaged backgrounds and women are murdered in that environment too

I didn't mean that the world is more dangerous for trans women than for cis women (though I'd suspect it possibly is, I'll need to do more research on that). I meant why would a cis man pretend to be a trans woman in order to access women's spaces to harm cis women? If men want to attack us then they unfortunately have many ways to do so already