Gender Discussion #9

[mindlessness]

I see what you mean @Aye Up , but also I would argue there is no one way to 'act, present, talk and look' like a woman. That's part of my struggle with everything I think. I don't like gender constructs nor the idea or expectation that we must adhere to some sort of 'norm' when it comes to behaviour or presentation of self.

Plus I don't actually think anyone should put themselves through the horrifically invasive surgery that leaves them with life-long medical needs. Puberty blockers, hormones and surgery don't change the biological reality and cause so many health issues in the meantime.

 

[Doc]

Coming out of lockdown and it feels like I’m entering this horrible world that has been festering on the internet for so long unseen but has been able to finally escape.

I accept hate speech is wrong but where do we draw the line, people get offended by anything and shutting up women to stop ‘offending’ men is so backwards.

I honestly am starting to believe it’s not about protecting men with fetishes, but rather stripping power and special protection away from women in the name of global control.

Look at where in the world this trans phenomenon has gained traction, and compare it to where in the world women enjoy the most power and autonomy.

 

[CheshireLove]

Home - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

www.chimamanda.com

Seeing lots about this on Twitter. I'm so here for these Rowling-esque essays.

Chimamanda is so articulate and eloquent in her writing. I feel the same awe and power reading her essay as I did when JK published her essay last year. These are powerful women who carry a powerful message and they are being heard.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

Exactly, there's a lot not being said here. Who knows how the wife feels, maybe she has accepted it, but deciding to transition after marriage and a child is... A lot. I do know a woman in a similar situation and she ended the marriage. Her name was dragged through the mud but privately, I know people understood and supported her decision.

Why is it that people expect women to change their sexuality because their partner decided to transition? Love is love? You love the person, not their gender? I'm pretty sure gay people have fought long and hard to explain that their sexuality is not a personal choice nor is it possible to change it. I agree with this 100%. If you are straight and you married a man, why are you expected to become a lesbian if your husband transitions? How is that progressive? How is that honouring people's sexuality?

 

[House of Tea]

I don’t have a daughter, or any kids for that matter, but I am so incensed that girls are having their education messed up because of the harassment/sexual assaults they face from boys on a seemingly daily basis. I caught a tail end of a discussion last week on Jeremy Vine’s radio show about this, where mums rang up about the incidents their daughters faced. They, and teachers too, say it is prevalent and getting worse.

I am convinced that the number of girls who say they are non-binary or who want to change sex to become a boy are doing it because of what they are facing at school, and probably what they think society are large is like for girls. Life is getting worse for girls when they should be reaping the rewards of decades of women’s empowerment. There really needs to be urgent action on this. All the porn boys, at ever younger ages, are watching and acting upon, is damaging them too. Where are their childhoods?

 

[skvallertant]

My daughter rang me today asking to come home from school due to needing the toilet with an upset stomach. She won’t go now because they’ve ripped down single sex bathrooms and made cubicles IN THE CORRIDOR. I wouldn’t go for a number 2 either. I am planning to email the school to ask about the lack of dedicated single sex toilets or at least access to one that’s more private and NOT in a corridor for such times. Imagine being a teenage girl with an upset stomach having to effectively go in a corridor. Or not even toilet related, changing pads and tampons etc, it’s just not fair.

I'm so sorry to hear that this happened to your daughter. I hope she's feeling better. It's absolutely inexcusable.

With regards to periods etc, when I was at school I used to sit with bunched up toilet paper in my underwear because teachers would ask why I was taking my bag with me to the toilet etc. Now, of course, I would have no problem saying that I need to change my sanitary towel, but I think adults, even sometimes adult women, forget how difficult, taboo and embarrassing periods can be for pubescent girls. In fact, I know many working age women who actually feel similar about changing their sanitary products at work.

Sorry if this was o/t.

 

[Vee6]

Caitlin has done fuck all during this movement and it won’t be forgotten. Totally applies to her. What’s she been playing at

 

[carriebooboo]

Sofie strikes me as someone who is profoundly unhappy and now that fat acceptance hasn't given her the positive feels she was promised, has moved on to the next instant/don't-have-to-put-the-work-in fix.

Really, she should just focus on producing more work. Melissa McCarthy and Dawn French are both big and they just get on with it, making good material, instead of demanding people like/pay attention to them.

 

[LaLa247]

The topic of sex work came up in another thread. Someone mentioned that she lived next door to trafficked Eastern European prostitutes, she hated it and it made her question her inclusive stances (meaning the sex work is work liberal stance). Cue accusations from a poster about racism and a few posters flouncing from the thread, one of the posters was from Eastern Europe and took this as a personal insult. As if not wanting to live beside them means you're a terrible racist person. Funnily enough, one of the other posters who flounced from the thread seems to be pro sex work. They totally missed the entire points we raised in relation to the issues around sex work

I’ve always thought the defence of sex work comes from a very privelliged position, from people who have never witnessed the reality of desperate and exploited women and also the communities that they are from and operate in. I say this as someone from a very very rough area.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Just wanted to pop on and rant to people who would understand -

I was listening to the UK True Crime podcast but this is the last episode I'm listening to. The host talked about Jacqueline Jordan who was murdered at home where she worked as a prostitute for £30 a session. She was 49, addicted to drugs and the neighbours in the cul-de-sac described her as really kind but 'timid, fragile and frail' and that she let men 'bully her' and they had complained to the housing authority. Then the male host went on and said this...



It's just infuriating. Nobody is saying that Jacqueline was a bad person for being a prostitute or being addicted to drugs, but it's not 'as valid as any other paid work', she wasn't on OnlyFans or having a sugar daddy, she was obviously in a terrible situation and her prostitution was a matter of survival, not choice. As evidenced by the fact that she ended up murdered. There are ways to be respectful when you talk about prostitution without sugarcoating it and making it sound no different to stacking shelves at Tesco.

I stumbled across this website while looking up more about Jacqueline's case - it is absolutely heartbreaking - https://sexindustry-kills.de/doku.php?id=prostitutionmurders:start

The host makes the neighbours sound like a bunch of curtain twitching NIMBYs but it is perfectly reasonable to be scared of living next to a brothel, especially when there is regular violence. You don't know if the men turning up there would decide to attack you as well and you don't know if they'd harass or attack your young daughters.

The topic of sex work came up in another thread. Someone mentioned that she lived next door to trafficked Eastern European prostitutes, she hated it and it made her question her inclusive stances (meaning the sex work is work liberal stance). Cue accusations from a poster about racism and a few posters flouncing from the thread, one of the posters was from Eastern Europe and took this as a personal insult. As if not wanting to live beside them means you're a terrible racist person. Funnily enough, one of the other posters who flounced from the thread seems to be pro sex work. They totally missed the entire points we raised in relation to the issues around sex work

 

[Gamu]

You can bet too that all Trans awareness training is from Stonewall. We have one at work that I won't complete as it misled into believing self id is enough to gain access to women's spaces. It showed a horrible woman not allowing a sweet trans woman into the toilets. Stonewall that states the law " as they wish it is not as it is" to paraphrase the recent review.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

What's also absurd is that in these instances the wife hardly ever gets sympathy- the AGP gets more sympathy than the wife and has people cooing over him

 

[holliebollie]

A page I follow on fb linked today’s Maya F news with a big celebration. So many people saying (literally!) ‘Unfollowing, fuck you’ I was pleased to see the group admin not giving two shits I commented and even that felt like a rebellious act but fuck it, tell my employer that I think sex cannot be changed, literally could not give a hoot

 

[Platformcrocs]

It looks like her fundraiser has been taken down because it's for legal fees associated with an allegation involving gender. But it sounds like it's at GFM's discretion whether or not the donation page stays open.

You can't make it up at this point. Where will this end? Are we supposed to just accept it? She has a huge amount of support and thankfully people are rallying round. People are finally seeing it for what is it.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Well that’s me officially not voting Labour again until they bin this.

 

[emmer_moans]

Starmer and Labour can get in the bin. Women and girls are 52% of the population but no, Labour wants to pander to the miniscule percentage with the loudest voices. Once again they are pandering to the pro-Labour echo chamber on Twitter but not 'reading the room' regarding the working masses.

 

[jewelkitty]

Okay, I get it now. I appreciate the replies @jewelkitty @AnderbeauJohnson @Ispyabudgetbeanblogger @Platformcrocs - i understand this space a lot better now and the main topics and opinions! (Stupidly, I was reading the most liked comments and they aren’t as representative.) I agree a wiki or something may be useful. For me, my experiences have been positive ones so I can’t add to the conversation. I will be ducking out now but thanks for the information.

Thanks for your respectful replies! A lot of people have come in before with the appearance of good intentions initially but that quickly fades away as just a facade. Differing opinions are welcome here once the dicussion can stay respectful.

 

[fmmac]

I was reading the article in the daily mail about Maya and there is a quote from Amanda Glassman who is the CEO of CGD:

The decision is disappointing and surprising because we believe Judge Tayler got it right when he found this type of offensive speech causes harm to trans people, and therefore could not be protected under the Equality Act.Today's decision is a step backwards for inclusivity and equality for all.

This has made me so angry. What about the offensive speech towards women? The threats of rape? Of violence? Of murder? The harm this causes to women? Inclusivity and equality for all except for women.

In all honestly, I don’t believe this is the reason. They are virtue signalling to distract from the fact that they are facing another tribunal, one in which Maya may just win.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

It's interesting how they always equate "sex work" with undesirable, low-paid jobs like fast food, retail, or factory work - because they know that women who have real career opportunities do not choose to be "sex workers" (and I don't just mean being an amateur porn model on OnlyFans)

And yes, working in those kind of jobs is just a LITTLE bit safer than "sex work." I love how the pro-prostitution brigade try to rebrand stuff like vaginal/anal tearing, STDs, unwanted pregnancy as "occupational hazards" - just like hurting your back from working on a building site!

 

[CheshireLove]

I stumbled across this thread as I find gender discussions interesting. Please don’t jump down my throat but I actually disagree to the majority of the standpoints here. I don’t want to ruin your space to have like-minded discussions but I just wanted to ask if the statements you are making are actually backed with genuine data and sources. And not anecdotal or hearsay information (e.g. terms like “most trans” and “many of them”). It can be dangerous if sweeping statements are made that aren’t backed with facts and solid evidence - such as actual numbers and a decent non-bias source. Especially if the statements perpetuate a dislike towards certain people.

Not one “set” of people (be in race, sex, gender, sexuality, etc.) are perfect. You will obviously get one or two bad eggs as people are complex ... but they don’t represent the whole pack. People in the past were concerned with the erosion of white only areas and the sanctity of marriage because of misinformation and taring whole sets of people with the same brush. Anyway. Sorry! Just my two cents. Wanted to make sure people are saying things based completely on facts and not just something you heard or read from a bias source that fits an opinion.

Welcome @Blaggings

I think our issue mainly is what is “trans” now. The meaning of trans has grown so much that there is no clear start or end point. Non-binary, gender fluid etc. How do you say what is trans? Is it really fair that a man who dresses up as a woman for half a week receives a “women in business” award? Can you be a woman for half the week and a man for the rest? I’m sure if I “identified” as a man for half a week, I wouldn’t be lauded like this.

'Gender fluid' exec named on list of Top 100 women in business

A "gender fluid" senior director at Credit Suisse has been awarded a place on a list of the Top 100 Women in Business.

www.google.co.uk

I do believe that some men will say they identify as trans (and you don’t have to “look” trans or try to pass anymore) to get into women’s spaces. I’m not saying that trans people are out to get women in any way whatsoever, but there are many men who will use this lack of certainty to their advantage.



I think you’re looking for evidence on our discussions around AGP? The trans widows website has many sad accounts where there is a strong sexual element to the husbands transition in most accounts. This sexual self fascination, cross dressing etc is

Philomena's Story: There and Back Again.

I have always found writing therapeutic. I know I am healing when I can focus enough to have a good scribble about something.

www.transwidowsvoices.org

A quick look on the cesspool that is Twitter and you’ll find a multitude of account that are essentially porn of transwomen dressed in baby doll dresses with their dicks out etc. I recently saw such an account comment on a post by JK Rowlings publisher about her children’s book.