Gender Discussion #9

[emerald]

I'm feel like I'm one of many women who, had they been born 10 years later, would have identified as non-binary. (I'm in my late twenties). Being a woman feels like a life-long penalty I did not ask for and I would have tried to escape it as teenager.

 

[everyoneistriggered]

I find the disparity in that TikTok person talking about their dysphoria and yet being really into their dick interesting. I know some people can be dysphoric about some parts more than others but it's always come across as 'this bit I don't mind' or 'I can deal with not changing that' or 'I just really want the changes hormones will give me.' But he seems to be really super into having one.

I wish that I could like this a thousand times. How are you a woman “born in the wrong body” but you’re obsessed with your penis which only men have? This topic messes with my mind so much I, at times, wonder if I’m being secretly drugged.

 

[holliebollie]

Has anyone ever challenged being called cisgender? As I’ve said before, I’m in a small, fairly conservative town and ‘woke’ is just a past tense verb here. My friends and I are in our thirties, working full time and have children so do not have many conversations around gender musings and pronouns.

Work however, is another matter. I have material on my uni course saying things like: ‘Mary is 12, she identifies as female’. You can’t identify as female, you are or you are not. I changed it to ‘Mary is a 12 year old girl’ in my text as I refused to go along with it. I have clearly male and female lecturers with he/him or she/her after their names, like we don’t know they’re men and women.

Anyway, I have heard women on my course (and me!) being addressed as cisgender and I want to say- so what exactly makes one a woman if you take away her sex? The clothes? Long hair? Love of drinking Prosecco?! My dad and I were discussing the Maya F case yesterday and he said, ‘You can change gender but not sex.’ I thought, WHAT ARE YOU CHANGING FROM AND TO?! Literally just using age old stereotypes of what is seen as being a man or a woman. Show me a young transwoman who wears their hair short, baggy old clothes from M&S, no make up, leaves their body hair to grow.

Sorry, that turned into a rant but how can you politely challenge it in a professional situation when someone is calling you cisgender? I’m not CG. I am a woman as a whole, I’m not two combined parts of ‘bio woman with breasts and a womb’ and ‘stereotype of a woman’- I am womaaaaaaaaan

 

[SqualorVictoria]

They're thick as pig shit really

Also: JK Rowlings essay is one year old today. How fitting

 

[Inforapenny]

And this comes as Ofsted has just released research about the hideous pressure girls now experience as young as 11 being asked by boys in their year group for naked pics.

Girls asked for nudes by up to 11 boys a night, Ofsted finds

Sexual harassment is being "normalised" among school-age children, England's schools watchdog finds.

www.google.com

So let me get this straight girls have literally no safe space now.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

What sexist tripe.
Many women still menstruate into the 50s, imagine being banned from alcohol from age of 10-50!! Mental but it won’t pass, I think the drinks industry would be on its knees if this became a thing, and it would encourage people to make dangerous concoctions in their baths. Better to have safely made drinks, imo. Obviously while pregnant it should be avoided but to ask anyone of childbearing age to avoid is just unreasonable.

Let's ban booze for men who become aggressive after drinking alcohol first.

I love Jess De Wahls. She has a great online shop for anyone who wants to support her. https://www.jessdewahls.com/

 

[2020two]

loved this woman speaking sense! And really positive comments too.

 

[thegirlscout]

I thought this was going to happen, paypal have removed accounts from people before. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they go after her physical bank accounts next and get those closed.

Then you have to question if people can use GFM and PayPal to fund legal fees, holidays, plastic surgery, etc etc then why are the cracking down so hard on this one person? At this point it seems very misogynistic.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

and this is how rumours start

In a week people will be saying Marion was physically chasing after transwomen in the street with a chainsaw and a hockey mask.

 

[SILKWORM]

Sometimes I feel like things are actually coming to a head and then I see horrendously homophobic garbage like this and think it isn't going to be over any time soon. (Click through to see all of it.)

Worst part -

Why do TRAs (trans ppl and their allies) use such hyperbole? Like, no, I don't do genital exams on the women I fancy because it's pretty obvious they're women. But even if (and it's a big IF) there was a trans women who was 'unclockable', and we got to the point of physical intimacy and she had a penis, I am 100% within my rights to say No. Saying that someone is a terrible person in that situation is not a feminist stance, and since TRAs like to proclaim they are the REAL FEMINISTS, then both views are not consistent with each other.

So, no, I don't inspect someone's genitals. Nor do I ask their pronouns or define my sexuality by someone's wishy washy sense of internal identity before 'deciding' that I am attracted to them. It just so happens naturally that the people I have always been attracted to, have vaginas. No deciding involved.

Honestly, I do wonder if some of these people are suffering from identity disturbances or have such a flimsy self concept.

 

[maytoseptember]

Back to the racket that is Stonewall…

I am completely and utterly lost for words. Our schools. Our kids. All that money pissed up the wall.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

When I was in sixth form there was no uniform (apart from basic rules: clothes had to be practical, not too revealing, etc.) Girls often wore shorts or short skirts when it was hot - not that short, but again, above the knee. We soon found out between us that several of the heavier girls, and a girl with very visible scarring on one leg, had been told by teachers to cover up and that their skirts/shorts were "too short" whereas thinner girls in similar clothes were never told off. We thought it was unfair but as an adult I'd be horrified that the school was basically applying this rule judging by which girls were deemed to look more attractive in short skirts

I have no words for this! How awful. I’m worried about my daughters going to secondary school. It’s a few years off yet but I feel like it’s going to be a period of time where I’m going to really have to have their corner, especially if self id takes hold, i feel like society generally seems to really dislike teenage girls? Idk why. Just a lot of blame gets put on them from basically the day they start puberty onwards for no good reason. Guess that’s patriarchy in a nutshell really, blame women for all the problems men cause.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Leaving this here

 

[emm]

Noticed chimamanda ngozi adichie is trending on Twitter and seems like TRA are slating her now for this interview from 2017?

compare this calm reasonable answer with the aggression and linguistic gymnastics of a lot of trans women

 

[thegirlscout]

Anyone have some free time to lodge a complaint with the Lib Dem’s? I don’t think a misogynist/ rape apologist (his use of ‘nasty attacks’) should be representing anyone. This is about women and their attackers being called she/her in court.

 

[Satisfying Click]

Does anyone else get anxious messaging on this thread?

I watched the thread for a long time without posting, for fear of being called a TERF, but as a woman, I've been called far worse. If people want to make judgements and assumptions about me, that's fine, I've survived sexual violence, domestic abuse and stalking, this is a walk in the park compared with that. It just involved having courage and knowing I'm not alone in my opinions.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Well that’s me officially not voting Labour again until they bin this.

Same. I had hoped that they would learn from the local elections but, yet again, they haven't. What they need to do to win voters (including me) back is focus on increasing jobs, homes for first time buyers and social housing, paying attention to working class and immigrant communities and increasing opportunities for people to get ahead in the North and in rural areas.

we will always stand as an ally with the LGBT+ community in the fight for true equality

No, you're standing as an ally with the TQ+ community.

I have a personal theory that Labour don't actually want to get into power, that they'd rather have the cushier job of spending most of their time saying 'Tories bad, we're good because we're not Tories and they're bad' at every opportunity.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Thanks @mindlessness ! I guess what really strikes me is the “autogynephiles” arguments. Just statements like “most” and “many of them” are broad. Plus the general fear that transwomen are only trans to be predatory of other women. I have never seen hard evidence that this is the case.

I wouldn't agree that the majority of transwomen are trans in order to be predatory but having same sex spaces (especially in prison) severly reduces the risk of a female prisoner being sexually assualted.

For instance, in the year ending March 2019 only 1% of prisoners convicted of sex-based crimes were female and 99% were male. In the same year 83/163 trans prisoners had been convicted of a sexual offense (this is a biased source but it is directly from DOJ statistics)

Transgender women criminality shows male pattern | Fair Play For Women

Transgender women in prison exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality, new data confirms. Crimes match birth sex not gender identity. So....

fairplayforwomen.com

That is slightly over 50%. The current rate for all male prisoners to be convicted of sexual offenses is around 19%.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/702297/omsq-q4-2017.pdf

That doesn't mean that all transwomen are rapists, not in the slightest. But it can mean that those who are male and sexually violent can self declare themselves as a transwoman and end up in a woman's prison and sexually assault them - such as Karen White did.

Back in the day it used to be that you had to live a certain amount of time 'as a woman' and get surgery but nowadays that often isn't the case. This might be because of long waiting times or it could be because they aren't interested in surgery. A meta analysis of 27 studies in 2016 showed that 97.2% of transpeople (male and female) do not have any surgery.

Prevalence of Transgender Depends on the "Case" Definition: A Systematic Review - PubMed

The empirical literature on the prevalence of transgender highlights the importance of adhering to specific case definitions because the results can range by orders of magnitude. Standardized and routine collection of data on transgender status and gender identity is recommended.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://fairplayforwomen.com/penis/ (this breaks the above study down but again, it is a radfem source)

Now, transwomen are at risk for violence if they're put in a male prison, and that is not okay. That is why I (and most of the posters in this thread) are more than happy to have a third, unisex space where trans people can go if they feel unsafe using the facilities that match their sex, whether that is prisons or hospital wards or bathrooms or changing rooms. That way both trans women and 'cis' women are at a reduced risk of violence.


Edit because this moved on while I was typing

Thanks for this! so as a percentage transwomen who are in prison (so already criminals and as I see in article a rapist) are performing more sexual assaults than other women prisoners. But does this percentage represent them outside of prison? There is clearly a problem with having a predator and potential victims in the same space. That is completely wrong and I hate that. What is also interesting though is that 95% of the sexual assaults in the prison are women on women crimes. Makes you wonder about lesbian rapists, they aren’t safe to jail with other women either if you look at it.
On flip side how safe are trans men in male prisons? It’s a tricky situation I agree.

I think that is most likely because the vast majority of people in female prisons are female, therefore they are more likely to interact with other women. I think it is also possibly because some prisoners are inherently dangerous so those women who do sexually assault would end up there. I think the fact that 99% of prisoners convicted of sexual offenses are male means that lesbians aren't a danger towards women as much as men are, otherwise there would be higher conviction rates.

Also, even though having a third prison space where transwomen are put won't solve female-on-female prisoner sexual based assaults, it would 100% prevent any future male-on-female prisoner based sexual assaults (not including any staff who could potentially assault women.) So there is, in my opinion, no reason not to have a third space as it does not harm the transwomen or the female prisoners to do so.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

A secondary school near to me put up a post on their fb page as they are recruiting. The picture attached, is what I presume are two staff members, one wearing a rainbow tie, and another wearing a rainbow mask. It feels like a tacky way for the school to come across as approachable and it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Am I unreasonable? I don’t want to be one of those people who gets offended by the pride flag but it just seemed a bit off for me.

Doesn’t help that I feel the whole movement has been hijacked by the T part of the acronym and LGB don’t seem to get a look in.

 

[everyoneistriggered]

I looked up the recommended reading for kids at primary school for relationships and it includes children’s books with different make up of families, single parents, single sex couples etc
Trans issues are very complicated for children.

I grew up knowing a man who left his wife and two children for another man. I never questioned it once and I was only 7 but had somebody sat me down to discuss every aspect of LGBTQIA (sorry if I’ve missed any letters off, I mean no disrespect) then I would have many questions and may not have been so accepting. I just knew this person as [X] and he wasn’t happy with his family so left to be with [Z] who happened to be another man. My children have a book where the protagonist has same sex parents and that’s as far as it needs to go for young children.

I also grew up a serious tomboy, convinced that I wanted to be a boy and have a boy’s name but if it was during present times then I dread to think what would happen to me. My concerns with my primary aged children learning about LGBTQIA individuals in depth is it may cause them to second guess aspects of themselves that they do not need to worry about yet. I am not homophobic or transphobic, I was also annoyed when the nursery taught my children about different races (not necessary, different cultures and religions - yes but skin colour no) and my child then 3 went around referring to people by their skin colour which made me cringe. I would rather they continue to take people at face value, i.e. this person is kind, I like and respect that. Labels not necessarily.

In my line of work, I have met many people who have at one point in their lives reported gender dysphoria and attended a gender clinic, only to inform me how many years down the line that they no longer feel that way. Teaching children about this so young has led to confusion where children wanting to be the other gender is now being seen as something more whereas in some cases, such as my own, it’s just a phase.

What we do need to teach is relationships in general whether it’s with some of the opposite, same sex or a non-binary person. Key things like respectful interactions, consent, conflict management etc, and there is no way that anybody can suggest that it is not “inclusive” because all relationships, even platonic need those things.

Apologies for the length of my post.