Gender Discussion #9

[DigiDuino]

Recently all of the female only Facebook groups I was in have changed their names so that trans people and non binary are welcome. (e.g. 'Women's talk' becomes 'let's talk')

I don’t feel comfortable at all with it, but I'd probably be kicked out anyway for saying so. Why aren't women allowed their own spaces now without worrying about men talking over us?

 

[House of Tea]

@philheybrookbay - you said this on the previous thread-
I’ll say one final thing. This darned explosion of Drag isn't helping matters- it's mudding the waters to such a degree that all kids want to be in a frock and make upon a weekend.

Whoever pushed for drag to be mainstream entertainment has done a good job. Mylene Klass held a drag theme party for her young daughter’s birthday at the weekend. I was a bit aghast at that. I don’t find drag entertainment at all, and highly suspect with misogynistic attitudes to women.

Edited to add link

Myleene Klass hits back at troll after they criticise drag party

The presenter, 43, responded to the troll who insisted that drag 'is for adults' by insisting her daughter chose the party's theme and simple wanted to celebrate 'inclusivity and diversity.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[LaLa247]

Well that’s me officially not voting Labour again until they bin this.

Labour are so lost, the left left (I hate using the term far left or ‘woke’ but you know who I mean) will never like him anyway, so he’s just losing the rest of the centre left who actually did

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Another thing that worries me about people suggesting that you're not allowed to reject people is that it also feeds into the 'don't kink shame' and 'be sex positive' movement. I'm not being a prude, and if people want to have truly consensual sex then that's absolutely brilliant. But a lot of media geared towards teenagers and early 20s women does seem focused on how it is bad and closed-minded to have any boundaries.

Then you end up with stuff like this - it is wrong to judge anyone for having a perfectly safe cannibalism fetish and fantasising about murdering and eating women, as long as the man doesn't act on it then it isn't a problem and you shouldn't kink shame him.

Yes, There’s a Safe Way to Have a Cannibalism Fetish. The Armie Hammer Story’s Not It

As a fetish educator, I’m so tired of seeing the Armie Hammer allegations used against the BDSM community.

www.cosmopolitan.com

It also makes it a lot easier to sexually exploit or even sex-traffic younger women and teenage girls with the print/social media telling them constantly that sex-work is empowering and, again, that having boundaries is bad. After all, if your boyfriend wants you to have a gangbang with his friends, is it wrong to kink-shame him by not going through with it? Even if you're not sure you actually want to?

We are going to end up with so many more women on this website and it's heartbreaking

https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I love this thread. I've been posting in this and the JK Rowling thread for around a year and every now and again a one post wonder will jump in to tell us we're all awful people but will scarper just as quick when we ask any follow up questions

Funnily enough, when the JK Rowling thread was originally set up it seems like it wa a typical thread to slag off a public figure- but it turned into more of a rave thread (with the odd exception) since her essay

 

[Satisfying Click]

I'm guessing it was a penis-haver who thought the hashtag #dropyourpants was a great idea

 

[emmer_moans]

I am SO glad that I’ve found this thread. I thought that I was the only one who is just completely gobsmacked by it all.

Welcome. I think it surprises people when they take the time to read here to see we are not “phobic” but rather very legitimately concerned about rights and safety and the freedom to articulate that concern.

 

[sephylily]

Has anyone else seen the Tweets (that stupidly I didn’t screen grab) about how there’s currently nobody in the UK authorised to do ‘bottom surgery’ for I think trans men? I believe someone said something like, there’s ‘only’ 1 million being spent on trans surgery (could even be 10 million - I don’t remember now but don’t want to inflate the claim based on my bad memory). Anyway, over the weekend I saw a Tweet from a woman who is dying of cancer even though there is a drug around that would potentially save her life, and the NHS won’t fund it. To me it seems criminal that any surgery is happening on perfectly healthy tissue because individuals with clear mental health issues demand it, but we won’t fund an expensive drug that might literally save someone’s life. I’m so done with this system.

i think i've mentioned this before but my young cousin had to go private to get his cataracts operated in because the nhs said they couldn't fund an operation that would get his eyes back to full vision so it pisses me off so much that money is just being wasted on this shit.

I wonder what will happen in the medical field more generally, so many people, especially women (for whatever reason, relgious or otherwise) want to see a female doctor. how will this be managed?

i opt for a female doctor typically, sometimes because of religious reasons when things are a bit intimate, sometimes because of pure embarrassment and sometimes because the male doctors at my practise are raging knobs. not being able to choose would be devastating.

 

[Blond3g1rl]

I read the thread whilst up last night so feel comfortable saying this now - not my intention to offend but this is something you just cannot speak about IRL and would love anyone’s thoughts on, expecting disagreements too -

Women in tech are a minority & it’s incredibly rare to find anyone with any seniority really as the opportunities just weren’t there back in the 90s/early 00s for them to establish themselves and become CIOs/CPOs/CDOs or heads of development etc in current day. I’ve got a name like “Stephanie” which could be read as “Stephan” and when introed over email it’s always assumed I’m the latter, for example because we are still so rare especially at mildly senior levels (eg a head of a smaller sub function). Anyway onto the point -

Something I’ve noticed a lot is at panel events when there’s a female speaker or those top X lists (which are problematic for other reasons) I’ve started to notice the only women I see are older trans women who’ve only recently (under 5 years) became female presenting. So that means 10,20,30 years of their career was lived out as a male presenting person gaining all the benefits that gives them? And I know the trans lobby will deny that confers any advantages as they “were always female” but I’m sorry, no everyone thought they were a bloke so they weren’t being approached being asked “COO told me to speak to you about X, who can help me” (well, me hun x) or asking IT for access rights and being patronised like you’re a moron who is a danger getting access. They benefitted from an in earlier and years of mentorship from their male peers and seniors, it’s very hard to establish those relationships as a woman and I had two in my last role I clinged to as I had *never* had it before in a decade of working.

I feel awful but I really don’t want to hear about being a woman in tech by someone who got to an incredibly senior level then became a woman and the trans thing is utterly undiscussable with anyone IRL. I feel like their personhood is more respected because it’s such a hot issue with D&I and no one dares question anything. I also feel terrible that I don’t necessarily want to listen to their account of being a woman in X because they haven’t had the lived experience. It feels more like an LGBT inclusion point than a gender diversity / representation point?

I also feel like tech really over indexes in the number of trans women I see and I do wonder if Reddit / Twitter / the internet discourse these people will have been part of for years has something to play in that.

I’m writing this feeling terrible, I’ve never said any of this out loud before

My sister is a woman in tech, she’s in her 20s. She’s dealt with harassment, bullying and a sacking due to false gross misconduct claims. All by jealous little men who can’t stand seeing a young woman do very well in ‘their industry’.

 

[judgejohndeed]

A secondary school near to me put up a post on their fb page as they are recruiting. The picture attached, is what I presume are two staff members, one wearing a rainbow tie, and another wearing a rainbow mask. It feels like a tacky way for the school to come across as approachable and it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Am I unreasonable? I don’t want to be one of those people who gets offended by the pride flag but it just seemed a bit off for me.

Doesn’t help that I feel the whole movement has been hijacked by the T part of the acronym and LGB don’t seem to get a look in.

If only the same efforts would be taken to recruit more POC, disabled people, etc etc. It does seem like literally everything has to be about transgender people these days, it’s overpowering and probably turns a lot of people off

 

[jackolantern]

So let me get this straight. Are we entering a world where you are allowed no preferences and just have to date the first person who asks you? How will that work then, do we all queue up and get matched with the first person who comes our way? I'm sure the fine fellow who wrote that tweet employs such a wonderful array of acceptance and would equally date anyone who asked him regardless of the inherent personal preferences that he will quite clearly have.

IMO this is becoming dangerously similar to the attitudes of incels whereby this offended culture is stemming from the fact that people are taking personal criticism from the fact other people don't want to date them, so therefore expect everyone to want to.

What the hell would anyone get from forcing someone to be in a relationship with them when they clearly don't want to and there is no attraction? Christ are you that desperate?

 

[Buswanker]

What I would like to see now is every actual threat of violence made on social media towards gender critical women investigated. The TW who tweeted about actually wanting to kill a TERF. Investigate. The people behind the enactment of hanging a TERF. Investigate them.
If posting a photo of a ribbon is a chargeable offence, surely so are actual threats of violence that cannot be misconstrued as something else.

If the TW who thought it was acceptable to post publicly that they basically wanted to kill a woman has a job, would their contract be terminated if their employer saw that post? Would the folks at the enactment of hanging a woman still have jobs if their employers knew that they had done?

Yet stating biological fact gets you the sack?

 

[colouredlines]

Thanks for popping in, that sounds so sad regarding the child. I feel for kids who are being moulded into gender stereotypes by their parents, because that has to have some psychological impact on them, kids typically want to please their parents and do not understand what is happening. Gender reveal parties have a lot to answer for I think

Yeah. I remember when this acquaintance of mine found out the sex of her third child, she kept posting about how sad she was that she wouldn't be able to go for manicures with a daughter, have shopping trips, pick out a wedding dress...

I've never had a manicure, I hate shopping with other people, and I'm not married. How the hell are people still defining womanhood in this way?

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Just wanted to pop on and rant to people who would understand -

I was listening to the UK True Crime podcast but this is the last episode I'm listening to. The host talked about Jacqueline Jordan who was murdered at home where she worked as a prostitute for £30 a session. She was 49, addicted to drugs and the neighbours in the cul-de-sac described her as really kind but 'timid, fragile and frail' and that she let men 'bully her' and they had complained to the housing authority. Then the male host went on and said this...

'It wasn't just the men arriving to the house at all hours of the day and night they objected to, although I would say that how she earned her money is nothing to do with anyone else. Sex work is just as valid as any other paid work, but there had been regular disturbances in and around the house too.'

It's just infuriating. Nobody is saying that Jacqueline was a bad person for being a prostitute or being addicted to drugs, but it's not 'as valid as any other paid work', she wasn't on OnlyFans or having a sugar daddy, she was obviously in a terrible situation and her prostitution was a matter of survival, not choice. As evidenced by the fact that she ended up murdered. There are ways to be respectful when you talk about prostitution without sugarcoating it and making it sound no different to stacking shelves at Tesco.

I stumbled across this website while looking up more about Jacqueline's case - it is absolutely heartbreaking - https://sexindustry-kills.de/doku.php?id=prostitutionmurders:start

The host makes the neighbours sound like a bunch of curtain twitching NIMBYs but it is perfectly reasonable to be scared of living next to a brothel, especially when there is regular violence. You don't know if the men turning up there would decide to attack you as well and you don't know if they'd harass or attack your young daughters.

 

[HoGi]

I swear people make stuff like this up online for no reason but to cause drama.
View attachment 622878

Swirling a skirt around, is that what women are meant to do?? I must be a man

 

[skvallertant]

I have no idea who this is but holy shit, what a clapback. YASS.

I just don't understand this line of argument from TRAs at all. It's pure science denial. We will accept that you identify as female and accept that you have had various hormonal and surgical interventions to ape being a woman. But why should we be forced to say that that's exactly the same as being a born female? It isn't. Everyone knows it isn't. They need very specialist care (that the NHS simply cannot provide). I don't get this descent into denial that TRAs seem to want. I'm intrigued as to who they'll blame in 40 years when their prostates start fucking them over and they're riddled with diabetes. "they should have told us that as bio males we're more at risk". Well, we did and you shouted us down. Fucking morons.

 

[Universal]

I read the thread whilst up last night so feel comfortable saying this now - not my intention to offend but this is something you just cannot speak about IRL and would love anyone’s thoughts on, expecting disagreements too -

Women in tech are a minority & it’s incredibly rare to find anyone with any seniority really as the opportunities just weren’t there back in the 90s/early 00s for them to establish themselves and become CIOs/CPOs/CDOs or heads of development etc in current day. I’ve got a name like “Stephanie” which could be read as “Stephan” and when introed over email it’s always assumed I’m the latter, for example because we are still so rare especially at mildly senior levels (eg a head of a smaller sub function). Anyway onto the point -

Something I’ve noticed a lot is at panel events when there’s a female speaker or those top X lists (which are problematic for other reasons) I’ve started to notice the only women I see are older trans women who’ve only recently (under 5 years) became female presenting. So that means 10,20,30 years of their career was lived out as a male presenting person gaining all the benefits that gives them? And I know the trans lobby will deny that confers any advantages as they “were always female” but I’m sorry, no everyone thought they were a bloke so they weren’t being approached being asked “COO told me to speak to you about X, who can help me” (well, me hun x) or asking IT for access rights and being patronised like you’re a moron who is a danger getting access. They benefitted from an in earlier and years of mentorship from their male peers and seniors, it’s very hard to establish those relationships as a woman and I had two in my last role I clinged to as I had *never* had it before in a decade of working.

I feel awful but I really don’t want to hear about being a woman in tech by someone who got to an incredibly senior level then became a woman and the trans thing is utterly undiscussable with anyone IRL. I feel like their personhood is more respected because it’s such a hot issue with D&I and no one dares question anything. I also feel terrible that I don’t necessarily want to listen to their account of being a woman in X because they haven’t had the lived experience. It feels more like an LGBT inclusion point than a gender diversity / representation point?

I also feel like tech really over indexes in the number of trans women I see and I do wonder if Reddit / Twitter / the internet discourse these people will have been part of for years has something to play in that.

I’m writing this feeling terrible, I’ve never said any of this out loud before

this post. I am the same in my industry. Its male dominated and there a forums and networking events for women. Or rather there was , now the networking events are for 'anyone who identifies as a woman'. Now I think they should be inclusive but I don't identify as a women, I am one. But there is no option for that on the booking forms for these events. I feel like I have been erased.

 

[JoeBloggs]

Also, in light of the recent Ollie Robinson debacle - a 27 year old cricketer being suspended and kicked out of the England squad NOW for racist/sexist tweets he made as a teenager - you can bet your life GC women will be made to suffer with their careers/social status in the future for things said *today* that may threaten these bio companies from setting up their gender meat and hormone markets.

I’m not defending what Ollie Robinson said btw, but you’ll be hard pushed to find anyone that hasn’t said something crass against a “protected group” -in our case, trans people - and it sets a dangerous precedent.

I strongly feel there should be a time limit on punishment for historic acts. Let’s be honest I bet all teenagers have said something offensive, either from their own through or those of their peers. Punishing them 10+ years later does nothing. He’s in the public eye and could use the to his advantage to show others but taking him from the position does nothing and it also feeds into the view of not speaking out.

 

[jackolantern]

Absolutely shocking. Scarily though, I can see situations like this becoming more and more common.
I’m a mental health nurse and one of the female wards I trained on had a male patient who identified as female just before I started. From what I heard, the individual was respectful but I was really surprised by it. Many many female patients in inpatient MH care have a diagnosis of personality disorder, where experiences of sexual trauma are prevalent. This obviously goes for other acute mental health problems (bipolar, schizophrenia/schizoaffective) too. It also goes without saying how vulnerable people often are by the time they reach acute inpatient care.
Apparently the other patients on the ward were accepting of the MtF individual (or so they say!). I can’t help wondering though if someone had objected, what would have happened? Who’s feelings would have been put first in this scenario? I really do hope it would have been the woman’s.

Its so telling to me that as a man who has chosen to identify as a woman, they want to be on a female ward because they aren’t comfortable around men. Yet they expect women to be comfortable around them? If as a biological man you aren’t comfortable, is it any fucking wonder biological women aren’t? It’s great that those women were so accommodating but I despise that they had to be in the first place. Especially given their history

This gives a brief overview

Feminist campaigner charged with 'hate crime'

A LEADING feminist campaigner has been charged with a hate crime for posting allegedly homophobic and transphobic material on social media.

www.heraldscotland.com

David is a failed actor and a gay man who has said a lot of horrible things about GC women and GC gay men - one of the tweets she is being investigated for was a retweet of a photo of a suffragette ribbon and she hashtagged it #actorsnamehateswomen (I've censored to not get in trouble) - apparently he has said that it is a death threat and that the ribbon was a noose, which is possibly why she's being charged with homophobic tweets as well as transphobic tweets.

The ribbon was one similar to those used in Scotland here on IWD - https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-great-ribbon-terror/comment-page-1/

Thats very helpful thank you

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

It's hard (or manybe confronting is the right word?) to be gender critical, especially for those of us who in many other ways are to the left politically and have found that suddenly anything except absolute adherence to 'trans women are women' is blasphemy. Know you're not alone.

This is like a breath of fresh air, and thank you for these resources too I’m definitely going to take a look at these today.

And YES. I’m very left wing, like I’ve never had a job where it’s not been a thing people are surprised to learn the extent of and joke about. So I’ve always felt like there’s something wrong with me or I’m missing a piece of the puzzle, and I’ll admit I get very confused by the “penises aren’t male” discourse and the stuff I see lesbian Twitter going through with “you’re transphobic if you don’t want to sleep with a woman with a penis”. How have we become so disconnected from the violence men and their penises inflict?

My turning point where I don’t want to accept it is having a daughter. It really worries me that she could be in a swimming changing room and be exposed to an adult’s penis because they self ID as female. Similarly I don’t want rapes or family annihilations or murdered (all the male crimes) recorded as being carried out by women.

I don’t feel like a hateful or horrible person but everything I read on Twitter suggests I am both.

this post. I am the same in my industry. Its male dominated and there a forums and networking events for women. Or rather there was , now the networking events are for 'anyone who identifies as a woman'. Now I think they should be inclusive but I don't identify as a women, I am one. But there is no option for that on the booking forms for these events. I feel like I have been erased.

I’ve read your posts before so know what field & would definitely say it’s an incredibly similar situation! I’ve only just got to the point in my career where I’d gain any real benefit from going to these sorts of events and I don’t want to now. I get DMed on LinkedIn asking to go on podcasts or speak on panels and I don’t want to because I worry about who I’d have to share a platform with and missteping or being visibly uncomfortable. I couldn’t take them seriously discussing their career history because sorry but if I could sink beers and do lines with the right people I’m sure I’d be on your salary rn too hun x

I don’t understand how transwomen can’t see how it would feel for us as younger AFAB women who’ve endured the shit they’re just going through lifetime to date (although they’re not, sorry but in the gender hierarchy it’s male > transwomen >>>>>>>> AFAB women >> trans men). Also acknowledge the absence of sexual harassment they’ll face? My 20s are coming to a close now but the number of uncomfortable situations you have to endure that make you wonder if it’s worth it at all, that they simply will never be exposed to. I know it’s different for trans women in sex work, but that’s the very dangerous nature of sex work so not 1:1.