Gender Discussion #85

[Mismatched Pegs]

p.s. Eddie Redmayne makes me queasy

I do not like his face. I really wanted to watch Jackal but couldn't because of him.

 

[Nurseali]

My mum used to go to aquaerobics and the pool changing rooms were one big open space with two cubicles so most of the women in the class got changed in the open space. Then a TIM joined. A man who had no surgery, wore a wig and fake bits. He decided he was going to use the women’s changing rooms. A 6 foot bloke getting his rooster out in a space where largely elderly women were getting naked.

The club’s solution was to offer the women use of the men’s changing room, as they were completely unoccupied as the only man in the class was in the women’s. That is a bleeping mental state of affairs and it seems utterly ludicrous it ever happened. It may still be happening - my mum doesn’t go to the class any more.

As for being ‘out’ I am to my friends and family but some friends have NB teenagers so we have a tacit agreement not to discuss and I do respect the kids’ pronouns because they’re children (and autistic). I have lost a lot of good friends though. Am not out at work at all - I’m currently working with people with pronouns in their signatures although I suspect it’s virtue signalling rather than believing in gender woo

Shame on that club. This is what angers me so much I could literally cry.
The minority aren't spoken to made to compromise, made to accommodate made to move. It shouldn't be the majority who does all that.
duck that. I think more women are feeling resentful and annoyed and bitter at the madness.

 

[Tofino]

I - a 32-year-old gay man - have some thoughts.

Admittedly, as a man, the issues gender identity causes do not affect me as I'm not the one affected by this (for example, I have no desire to ever set foot in a woman's bathroom, do not want to harm a woman or girl, and, sexually, have no romantic attraction to women or girls whatsoever, guys on gay dating sites etc who cross-dress I avoid because that does nothing for me, and I've never thought that I'm a woman, nor ever wanted to be one), so I apologise in advance if anything I've said here comes across as insensitive, contradictory or anything like that - I promise I'm not here to change anyone's minds, or to lecture anyone, but to learn from those this issue affects the most.

I don't know any trans people personally to my knowledge, nor of anyone who has ever suffered with their gender identity - again, to my knowledge. If ever that becomes the case, I would ultimately respect them and their preferred pronouns. I don't believe that every man who supports gender identity has an ulterior motive and wishes to harm women, nor do I think that all trans-identified men who use women's bathrooms want to harm women. I don't believe that 'woman' is a set of pre-conceived ideas, ideals and notions either, as every biological woman is different. But I'm slowly becoming aware that women cannot tell the difference between the trans-identified who wish to harm them, and those who don't.

I re-read JK Rowling's original manifesto, whatever you want to call it, that she wrote back in 2020, and one line keeps embedding itself in my head: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass." And I find that quite unsettling. Surely those 'robust systems' should remain in place, and any candidate for sex reassignment should undergo this over a number of years before being legally declared a woman, and GRCs should be issued only to those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery?

I'm ashamed to say that it's only now dawning on me that JKR was right all along - even if I vehemently disagree with the apparent mentality some have that Daniel Radcliffe, Rupert Grint and Emma Watson should show her blind loyalty and agree with everything she says/does because they starred in the movie adaptations of her books. All four people are fully-grown adults with minds of their own, capable of forming their own opinions.

Anyway, these are my (probably incoherent and contradictory) thoughts - but I promise I'm learning, and am open to any and all views/critique on this!

Here’s an excellent, thought provoking article around using preferred pronouns. It can feel like an act of kindness towards an individual that doesn’t harm anyone. But if it alters your perception of reality then is it really harmless?

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

fairplayforwomen.com

 

[Nurseali]

Here’s an excellent, thought provoking article around using preferred pronouns. It can feel like an act of kindness towards an individual that doesn’t harm anyone. But if it alters your perception of reality then is it really harmless?

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

fairplayforwomen.com

Thank you for this. Sent it to my eldest son. We have now agreed we won't discuss or debate as neither of us particularly enjoys the experience but we can send each other interesting articles.

Progress of sorts. Though still annoyed at 18 I can't take his phone off him or ground him when he pisses me off!

 

[buttheyneverblindme8]

Although public toilets are currently in the news, the issue is far wider. Men (claiming to be women) have pushed their way into many female-only spaces, such as
Hospital wards,
grape centres,
Women's prisons,
Women's shelters,
Giving same-sex, intimate care to a disabled woman,
Breast-feeding groups,
les groups.

Most of these are where women feel at their most vulnerable and want privacy and dignity. The company of other women can be a comfort at these times and give support.

Women are at a physical disadvantage to most men, and those that have suffered at the hands of men can be left traumatised and wish to avoid being in confined spaces with unknown men. Historically women have had to fight for these women-only spaces too.

There are, of course, many "good" men. Decent men. Men who can be trusted. But because there's no way of differentiating between these men and those who are violent or have fetishes a blanket ban exists to keep all men out.

Then there is privacy and dignity. Imagine a woman being admitted as an emergency to hospital and she's on her period. This actually happened to me and as I was concussed I wasn't thinking straight. I wasn't allowed to walk to the toilet and had to use a bedside commode, where I was assisted to change my pad by a nurse. Of course the curtains round my bed were drawn, but there's really very little privacy.

Imagine this happening to a young woman today, only there's a man in the next bed to her, and he has a period fetish. What is he going to overhear? What is he going to see - in my confused state, once I was allowed more movement I wasn't getting in and out of bed in a ladylike way! I was wearing a hospital gown and had no modesty at all. Would the woman leave blood on the sheets for him to see? The woman is unwittingly taking part in his sexual fetish without giving any consent to do so. In contrast a female patient is extremely unlikely to have such a fetish and far more likely to be understanding.

This is just one example of women needing privacy and dignity. And also just one example of male fetishes. Some men simply enjoy making women feeling uncomfortable by their presence. Others have a humiliation fetish and enjoy being forced to leave a female space. The list goes on. A fetish or a kink is fine only when carried out in private between fully consenting adults.

Men, of course, also deserve their privacy and dignity and women claiming to be men shouldn't be in their spaces either. Gay men should be able to meet without women turning up saying they're gay men.

It applies to both sexes. The reason why we hear more about men trying to enter women-only spaces is because of the safety aspect - a woman is unlikely to be a physical threat to most men. But also, when we think about privacy and dignity, there's a lot more involved for women than for men, because of our reproductive system. Returning to public toilets, some have very little room. Do you think that a pregnant woman wants to squeeze herself past a man in order to wash her hands? Does a woman suffering a miscarriage want men around her?

A Gender Recognition Certificate used to be extremely difficult to obtain and the vast majority of AGP men (Look it up if you don't know the term) were weeded out. It took many years and many interviews with professionals. As a result the number of men with a GRC were tiny and most women wouldn't encounter one in their lifetime.

The situation now is very different. Not only is a GRC is very easy to obtain, but many men are simply using the Trans umbrella to access women's spaces. Until very recently, you could simply say you were a woman and demand access to women's spaces. That's it.

The counter argument is that no man is going to go to the effort of pretending to be a woman just to attack women. Unfortunately it has happened. But is a man going to go to the effort of pretending to be a woman to satisfy a fetish? Of course he is.

Finally, although you say it doesn't directly affect you, it does affect young gay teenagers. There's a significant number of men who would, in time, realise that they're gay, thinking that they're women instead.

Thank you so much for this response.

Regarding men performing intimate care on women - you've just unlocked a memory for me of one of my grandmothers being offered a male carer while she was suffering from dementia (we declined and she was cared for by women). We were given the choice as she didn't have the mental capacity to decide for herself, and this is long before 'gender identity' became a mainstream topic.

I'm slowly realising that my previous view of 'not all trans people etc' was extremely narrow-minded, and that there's much more to this issue than just 'not all trans people/not all men'. Both of those statements apply, but they only scratch the surface of what this is really about.

I've not heard of the term AGP, but I'll look it up when I get the chance! And I touched upon the GRC thing in my original post - the robust systems that previously applied to sex reassignment should remain, and only those who have actually transitioned fully - not just lived as a woman for a few months - should receive one.

I admit, I used to think that no man would pretend to be a woman to attack a woman. But I've seen articles online where the man - who is very obviously male and clearly has no desire to become a woman other than to put on a wig - has very clearly pretended to be a woman to attack a woman, so that's my previous thought straight out of the window!

Regarding your claim that gay men should be able to meet without women turning up saying they're gay men - again, I've never thought of it this way. I would never have sex with anyone with a tina (I'm using this term to describe people like Buck Angel - born female, transitioned and lives as a man, but still retains female genitalia), because I've always associated a tina with a woman, and I'm not attracted to them at all, and never have been.

And when I say it doesn't affect me - I mean it doesn't affect me personally because I've always been secure in both my sexuality (since I was about 10, probably younger) and my gender to know that I'm a gay man, not that gender identity ideology doesn't affect young gay teens.

 

[Mugglewump]

Or pushing her back in when she's trying to leave the cubicle and locking the door, before assaulting her?

Particularly a problem with floor to ceiling cubicles which aren't safe.

 

[Dinate]

I also don't work due to health issues so don't have a workplace to be out as GC in. Most of my friends are, if not strongly GC, at least accepting of my viewpoint. I don't talk about this much with them but have never had pushback on anything that I've said from them.

When the SC ruling came out, I was away with a friend, her two teenage girls and her mum. I talked about the ruling as soon as I had watched it online because I was so relieved. I showed her a picture of the 'fragrant' Rose (Darlington nurse), and her comment was 'Well, she's a big lass isn't she?' which made us both laugh. Later that evening she mentioned the ruling to her mum, and her mum knew about the Darlington nurses and basically said that she felt very old because surely all of this was common sense and who on earth would want to change in front of a man? She used to be a nurse, so she really understood how crazy it all is.

My one difficult relationship is with my niece. She's late twenties and very much TWAW. We had a really annoying chat just before the SC ruling, where tbh, it felt like maybe I need to stop talking about it to her because I was getting really worked up about things and I don't want to fall out with her. She said that she thinks all toilets should be gender-neutral. She genuinely doesn't understand the dignity and privacy issue which I just can't get my head around. She even said that she thinks schools should have gender-neutral toilets and that the schools should employ someone to ensure that there were no problems e.g. using phones to take pictures over and under cubicles.

I said that that made no sense in terms of practicalities i.e. that schools should vast their budget on numerous toilet guards instead of keeping the status quo. She insisted that that was the fair thing to do. And as I said, she didn't understand the privacy or dignity point at all saying that you can change yourself and adjust your clothes etc in the stall. I asked about accessing period products in front of boys or cleaning your menstrual cap and she implied that I was being precious and that she and her friends are comfortable talking about being on a period in front of boys. She also said that she's very comfortable with her body so again doesn't understand the privacy talk if for example her skirt rides up etc.

When I talked about how even primary school children are victims of sexual harassment and assault, she said that she herself has been harassed, touched inappropriately in schools but she blames the individuals and not all boys. And of course she said that most women are attacked by people they know at home. She just didn't understand the broader safeguarding point at all.

I haven't seen or spoken to her since the SC ruling. If she brings it up, I'll probably just say that I'm relieved that the ruling was so clear and unequivocal because the reaction to it shows that there is a lot of opposition to women being able to have single-sex spaces, but that we probably shouldn't talk about it as our views are so far apart. I will also probably say that I hope she recognises that whilst she doesn't feel the need to have single-sex spaces, there are many women who do, and that she loses nothing from having them, whilst we do lose out if we don't have them and that the law now makes it clear that our feelings are legitimate and are to be protected.

 

[usefullyuseless]

Particularly a problem with floor to ceiling cubicles which aren't safe.

I don't like being in confined spaces and I find floor to ceiling cubicles make me anxious especially if the locking mechanism is something like a door lock instead of a bolt or a lever you can only open from the inside.

Our work toilets turn all the lights off if there's no movement in them after a while. If I go to enter the toilets and the lights are off I always stay at the door until all the lights come on so I can see if there's anyone in there.

 

[buttheyneverblindme8]

The problem is that all 'trans' people are not people who have gender dysphoria. There are men (AGPs) who get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothes, or accessing our spaces, or sniffing used sanitary towels, out putting them in their knickers, or wanking in a woman's space etc etc. Are you now beginning to understand why we don't want them there?

ETA And that's before expecting lesbians to accept 'girl fool'!

BIB: I am - slowly but surely! Like I said, it helps to hear from those this issue actually affects, instead of just considering my viewpoint as the only right one, and I can honestly say I'm learning a lot just from the few replies I've had to my posts already!

Regarding men who get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothing - to go off-topic slightly, crossdressing is rife in the gay community. It doesn't do anything for me personally, and I'm not attracted to guys who wear women's clothing. Whether or not they have any desire to actually be a woman, or just partake in crossdressing in the privacy of their own homes, who knows?

And as for expecting lesbians to accept 'girl fool' - I heard this term forever ago when I was watching Mary Cate Delvey's 'Listen to Trans People' series, and it made me laugh because I honestly thought it was satire, not something that some genuinely believe they have! The term 'boy cat' is used a lot in the gay community, mostly by young effeminate men, and now I come to think of it, most of them who use that term post accompanying pictures of themselves in thongs, wigs, make-up etc.

 

[VC10]

I don't like being in confined spaces and I find floor to ceiling cubicles make me anxious especially if the locking mechanism is something like a door lock instead of a bolt or a lever you can only open from the inside.

Our work toilets turn all the lights off if there's no movement in them after a while. If I go to enter the toilets and the lights are off I always stay at the door until all the lights come on so I can see if there's anyone in there.

I hate those bloody lights! I've been in a cubicle before now and they've switched off into total blackout. I had to fumble out to trip the sensor into operating again

 

[Notworthy]

Thank you so much for this response.

Regarding men performing intimate care on women - you've just unlocked a memory for me of one of my grandmothers being offered a male carer while she was suffering from dementia (we declined and she was cared for by women). We were given the choice as she didn't have the mental capacity to decide for herself, and this is long before 'gender identity' became a mainstream topic.

I'm slowly realising that my previous view of 'not all trans people etc' was extremely narrow-minded, and that there's much more to this issue than just 'not all trans people/not all men'. Both of those statements apply, but they only scratch the surface of what this is really about.

I've not heard of the term AGP, but I'll look it up when I get the chance! And I touched upon the GRC thing in my original post - the robust systems that previously applied to sex reassignment should remain, and only those who have actually transitioned fully - not just lived as a woman for a few months - should receive one.

I admit, I used to think that no man would pretend to be a woman to attack a woman. But I've seen articles online where the man - who is very obviously male and clearly has no desire to become a woman other than to put on a wig - has very clearly pretended to be a woman to attack a woman, so that's my previous thought straight out of the window!

Regarding your claim that gay men should be able to meet without women turning up saying they're gay men - again, I've never thought of it this way. I would never have sex with anyone with a tina (I'm using this term to describe people like Buck Angel - born female, transitioned and lives as a man, but still retains female genitalia), because I've always associated a tina with a woman, and I'm not attracted to them at all, and never have been.

And when I say it doesn't affect me - I mean it doesn't affect me personally because I've always been secure in both my sexuality (since I was about 10, probably younger) and my gender to know that I'm a gay man, not that gender identity ideology doesn't affect young gay teens.

How could you possibly not have considered this (although tbf lots of people didn't) We know that predators use any means of access to their victims, the Sports coaches, the Religious leaders, the Scout leaders etc, this is not an uncommon phenomenon and self ID makes it incredibly easy to access victims. A bad wig, a bit of lippy and Bobs your Uncle into the Ladies we go.

 

[buttheyneverblindme8]

How could you possibly not have considered this (although tbf lots of people didn't) We know that predators use any means of access to their victims, the Sports coaches, the Religious leaders, the Scout leaders etc, this is not an uncommon phenomenon and self ID makes it incredibly easy to access victims. A bad wig, a bit of lippy and Bobs your Uncle into the Ladies we go.

Because I got caught up in the blanket statements of 'trans women are women', 'not all men/trans people', and thought my opinion was the right one.

Again, it's only since I'm really beginning to think about it, hear other people's perspectives etc that I'm realizing that there are some men who claim to be trans for the sole purpose of attacking a woman, or to derive sexual pleasure from being in a woman's space.

 

[JAR21]

BIB: I am - slowly but surely! Like I said, it helps to hear from those this issue actually affects, instead of just considering my viewpoint as the only right one, and I can honestly say I'm learning a lot just from the few replies I've had to my posts already!

Regarding men who get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothing - to go off-topic slightly, crossdressing is rife in the gay community. It doesn't do anything for me personally, and I'm not attracted to guys who wear women's clothing. Whether or not they have any desire to actually be a woman, or just partake in crossdressing in the privacy of their own homes, who knows?

And as for expecting lesbians to accept 'girl fool' - I heard this term forever ago when I was watching Mary Cate Delvey's 'Listen to Trans People' series, and it made me laugh because I genuinely thought it was satire, not something that some genuinely believe they have! The term 'boy cat' is used a lot in the gay community, mostly by young effeminate men, and now I come to think of it, most of them who use that term post accompanying pictures of themselves in thongs, wigs, make-up etc.

BIB But these men are going beyond cross dressing and expecting people to believe they're women, so they can access our facilities. TBH I've got no issues with old fashioned t's, who know they're men and don't expect anyone to think they're women.

Re Lia Thomas, the US swimmer - he was allowed to use the women's changing rooms and from all accounts, he was naked in front of all the female swimmers, whilst sporting an erection.... So not only was he cheating, taking away women's places, taking their records, but he was getting off on it as well.

 

[Falkor]

BIB: I am - slowly but surely! Like I said, it helps to hear from those this issue actually affects, instead of just considering my viewpoint as the only right one, and I can honestly say I'm learning a lot just from the few replies I've had to my posts already!

Regarding men who get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothing - to go off-topic slightly, crossdressing is rife in the gay community. It doesn't do anything for me personally, and I'm not attracted to guys who wear women's clothing. Whether or not they have any desire to actually be a woman, or just partake in crossdressing in the privacy of their own homes, who knows?

And as for expecting lesbians to accept 'girl fool' - I heard this term forever ago when I was watching Mary Cate Delvey's 'Listen to Trans People' series, and it made me laugh because I honestly thought it was satire, not something that some genuinely believe they have! The term 'boy cat' is used a lot in the gay community, mostly by young effeminate men, and now I come to think of it, most of them who use that term post accompanying pictures of themselves in thongs, wigs, make-up etc.

There's a video that did the rounds a few years ago, which annoyingly I can't find at the moment, but hopefully someone here will remember it and have a link - someone made a compilation of photographs taken by AGP men in women's facilities. I thought I saw it on Mr Menno's Twitter account, but I've gone back through his media and can't spot it.

Anyone got a link? I think it was made around the time that bloke infiltrated a women's refuge and was taking pictures of himself in the shared bathroom with an erection and sharing them on social media.

Some of these men might well be "harmless" but I do not consent to being part of their sexual fantasies.

 

[buttheyneverblindme8]

BIB But these men are going beyond cross dressing and expecting people to believe they're women, so they can access our facilities. TBH I've got no issues with old fashioned t's, who know they're men and don't expect anyone to think they're women.

Re Lia Thomas, the US swimmer - he was allowed to use the women's changing rooms and front all account, he was naked in front of all the female swimmers, whilst sporting an erection....

I know these men are going beyond cross-dressing, I was making the point that there are some in the gay community who perhaps get a sexual kick out of cross-dressing, instead of it just being a kink or a fetish they indulge in while in the privacy of their own homes.

I've heard of Lia Thomas; first time I've heard he was sporting an erection in the changing rooms though! He should've been removed from the changing rooms and disqualified from the competition there and then!

 

[Notworthy]

I'm pretty vocal regarding my terfing. All my family are on the same page as are my friends (but I'm over 50 so to be expected) I'm also out at work but then Royal Mail at depot level isn't captured. Our depot was decorated for IWD but not for the numerous Trans visibility days. We do have a couple of Men using the Ladies because they are disabled and, not unsurprisingly given the job, there are no disabled toilets. Our depot just has a couple of unique circumstances that led to having physically disabled staff. They only use the Ladies when we are out on delivery, never when we are there, they leave it clean and any Female new starters are asked if they are OK with it so it's not an issue.

 

[ShopTilYouSlop]

I do not like his face. I really wanted to watch Jackal but couldn't because of him.

It was tit, he couldn't save it. Just watch or read the original, they're both fantastic. The remake shared pretty much nothing except the name.

 

[JAR21]

Who'd feel comfortable with this 'lady' in the loo with them?

 

[Weebles Wobble]

There's a video that did the rounds a few years ago, which annoyingly I can't find at the moment, but hopefully someone here will remember it and have a link - someone made a compilation of photographs taken by AGP men in women's facilities. I thought I saw it on Mr Menno's Twitter account, but I've gone back through his media and can't spot it.

Anyone got a link? I think it was made around the time that bloke infiltrated a women's refuge and was taking pictures of himself in the shared bathroom with an erection and sharing them on social media.

Some of these men might well be "harmless" but I do not consent to being part of their sexual fantasies.

This one?

 

[Brian Butterfield]

Who'd feel comfortable with this 'lady' in the loo with them?

I was just about to say, search the #ProtectTheDolls hashtag on Twitter to see what we're dealing with here. It makes for grim viewing.