Gender Discussion #85

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There's a lot there, what stood out to me was men not harming women in toilets. That might be the case, the biggest point for women is that we want privacy, we need it and deserve our own spaces without men in them. Just like men have had the luxury of not letting women into certain spaces since humanity began.
You've clearly never had to deal with a heavy period, it's something we have to put up with. The thought of a man in what is a private women's space while I'm urinating or dealing with anything else of private nature turns my stomach, no matter what his intentions are.
Thank you for clarifying this for me. Regarding your remarks about a period, urinating etc - I'm not going to lie; if I were a woman dealing with something of a private nature in what is a space said to be designated for me and a man - trans or not - came in to it, I'd be unnerved to say the least.

And I do believe that women deserve to, should and need to have their own designated spaces, and should have them. Like you say, if men get their own protected spaces, it is only fair and right that women receive the same too. Like I said, I've got a lot to learn on this issue because this is not an issue that affects me personally as a biological man, and I'm open to learning as much about this as possible!
 
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I was just about to post. I hate this open letter thing because it's bullying behaviour, I bet some lesser known Harry Potter actors will feel compelled by peer pressure to sign it as fans will start analysing it for 'missing' signatures. As much as I want Harry Potter to be made into a series I kind of think let's shelve it for now and come back in 10 years when people have calmed down. But I also don't want to capitulate either.

More virtue signalling crap from Harry Potter actors. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.


p.s. Eddie Redmayne makes me queasy.
 
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I was just about to post. I hate this open letter thing because it's bullying behaviour, I bet some lesser known Harry Potter actors will feel compelled by peer pressure to sign it as fans will start analysing it for 'missing' signatures. As much as I want Harry Potter to be made into a series I kind of think let's shelve it for now and come back in 10 years when people have calmed down. But I also don't want to capitulate either.

More virtue signalling crap from Harry Potter actors. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.


p.s. Eddie Redmayne makes me queasy.
He creeps me out and I don’t know how he gets such plaudits.
All this stuff is performative nonsense.
 
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I - a 32-year-old gay man - have some thoughts.

Admittedly, as a man, the issues gender identity causes do not affect me as I'm not the one affected by this (for example, I have no desire to ever set foot in a woman's bathroom, do not want to harm a woman or girl, and, sexually, have no romantic attraction to women or girls whatsoever, guys on gay dating sites etc who cross-dress I avoid because that does nothing for me, and I've never thought that I'm a woman, nor ever wanted to be one), so I apologise in advance if anything I've said here comes across as insensitive, contradictory or anything like that - I promise I'm not here to change anyone's minds, or to lecture anyone, but to learn from those this issue affects the most.

I don't know any trans people personally to my knowledge, nor of anyone who has ever suffered with their gender identity - again, to my knowledge. If ever that becomes the case, I would ultimately respect them and their preferred pronouns. I don't believe that every man who supports gender identity has an ulterior motive and wishes to harm women, nor do I think that all trans-identified men who use women's bathrooms want to harm women. I don't believe that 'woman' is a set of pre-conceived ideas, ideals and notions either, as every biological woman is different. But I'm slowly becoming aware that women cannot tell the difference between the trans-identified who wish to harm them, and those who don't.

I re-read JK Rowling's original manifesto, whatever you want to call it, that she wrote back in 2020, and one line keeps embedding itself in my head: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass." And I find that quite unsettling. Surely those 'robust systems' should remain in place, and any candidate for sex reassignment should undergo this over a number of years before being legally declared a woman, and GRCs should be issued only to those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery?

I'm ashamed to say that it's only now dawning on me that JKR was right all along - even if I vehemently disagree with the apparent mentality some have that Daniel Radcliffe, Rupert Grint and Emma Watson should show her blind loyalty and agree with everything she says/does because they starred in the movie adaptations of her books. All four people are fully-grown adults with minds of their own, capable of forming their own opinions.

Anyway, these are my (probably incoherent and contradictory) thoughts - but I promise I'm learning, and am open to any and all views/critique on this!
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Thank you for clarifying this for me. Regarding your remarks about a period, urinating etc - I'm not going to lie; if I were a woman dealing with something of a private nature in what is a space said to be designated for me and a man - trans or not - came in to it, I'd be unnerved to say the least.

And I do believe that women deserve to, should and need to have their own designated spaces, and should have them. Like you say, if men get their own protected spaces, it is only fair and right that women receive the same too. Like I said, I've got a lot to learn on this issue because this is not an issue that affects me personally as a biological man, and I'm open to learning as much about this as possible!
This is why, and also, because we want women only spaces.
 

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This is why, and also, because we want women only spaces.
Thank you for getting back to me - I never even considered the fact that men are stronger than women and therefore could easily break down the door etc. I was looking at it from the perspective that both man and woman would be outside the cubicle, not a woman in one doing whatever she needs to do and a man coming in to break the door down etc.
 
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Thank you for clarifying this for me. Regarding your remarks about a period, urinating etc - I'm not going to lie; if I were a woman dealing with something of a private nature in what is a space said to be designated for me and a man - trans or not - came in to it, I'd be unnerved to say the least.

And I do believe that women deserve to, should and need to have their own designated spaces, and should have them. Like you say, if men get their own protected spaces, it is only fair and right that women receive the same too. Like I said, I've got a lot to learn on this issue because this is not an issue that affects me personally as a biological man, and I'm open to learning as much about this as possible!
At the end of the day, Trans Identifying Men are men. They should use the men's facilities, just like you do. Men should be more tolerant of other men. I don't give a tit how they dress or whether they want to call themselves Susan or whatever. I just don't want them in our spaces. But I also would never use she/her pronouns for them either.
 
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At the end of the day, Trans Identifying Men are men. They should use the men's facilities, just like you do. Men should be more tolerant of other men. I don't give a tit how they dress or whether they want to call themselves Susan or whatever. I just don't want them in our spaces. But I also would never use she/her pronouns for them either.
Exactly this, I don't have a problem with them though, so long as they stay in their lane, the male lane.
 
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Thank you for getting back to me - I never even considered the fact that men are stronger than women and therefore could easily break down the door etc. I was looking at it from the perspective that both man and woman would be outside the cubicle, not a woman in one doing whatever she needs to do and a man coming in to break the door down etc.
Or pushing her back in when she's trying to leave the cubicle and locking the door, before assaulting her?
 
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I don't post on SM, but have deleted anyone (including close friends ) who think TWAW. My family all know & I outed myself to 2 NHS worker friends at dinner recently. There was a awkward silence but I powered on & showed them my terfy stickers I place around.
I have past trauma & see a psychotherapist regularly, this week I told her how happy I was about the supreme court ruling. There was no response. I will continue to mention it though as if I can't be honest in therapy sessions then what is the point.
I have a collection of suffragette badges & have been making sure I wear one everyday since the court ruling.
The trauma therapist I saw for quite a long time a few years back also had a special interest in maternal mental health, and I noticed she liked some anti Supreme Court posts from her business account.

Extremely disappointing and I unfollowed and won’t see her again if I need support in the future. It wasn’t a huge surprise as she used to have she/her pronouns on her account a few years ago but I hoped she would eventually see sense and she hadn’t done anything else proactively supportive of the ideology.

I just can’t understand how professional therapists who have sat and listened to women talk deeply about issues that can only affect them and not men, believe TWAW? It feels like a real slap in the face tbh.
 
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I don't want to worry about my 13 year old daughter going to the toilets alone. It shouldn't be something, along with the other 100 anxiety inducing things on my fear list.
 
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Or pushing her back in when she's trying to leave the cubicle and locking the door, before assaulting her?
Honestly, no.

Like I said, I've never given this issue much thought until recently, which doesn't reflect well on me, I know! My thoughts on this were extremely close-minded up until recently; I honestly thought it was as simple as 'not all trans people pose a threat to women', 'not every trans person who uses a women's bathroom wants to harm women' etc.

It's only now I'm really and truly starting to think about it that I realise there's much more to it than my previous way of thinking, and that if you let a man in a woman's bathroom, he could quite easily - and may well do - overpower a woman, assault her etc.
 
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I - a 32-year-old gay man - have some thoughts.

Admittedly, as a man, the issues gender identity causes do not affect me as I'm not the one affected by this (for example, I have no desire to ever set foot in a woman's bathroom, do not want to harm a woman or girl, and, sexually, have no romantic attraction to women or girls whatsoever, guys on gay dating sites etc who cross-dress I avoid because that does nothing for me, and I've never thought that I'm a woman, nor ever wanted to be one), so I apologise in advance if anything I've said here comes across as insensitive, contradictory or anything like that - I promise I'm not here to change anyone's minds, or to lecture anyone, but to learn from those this issue affects the most.

I don't know any trans people personally to my knowledge, nor of anyone who has ever suffered with their gender identity - again, to my knowledge. If ever that becomes the case, I would ultimately respect them and their preferred pronouns. I don't believe that every man who supports gender identity has an ulterior motive and wishes to harm women, nor do I think that all trans-identified men who use women's bathrooms want to harm women. I don't believe that 'woman' is a set of pre-conceived ideas, ideals and notions either, as every biological woman is different. But I'm slowly becoming aware that women cannot tell the difference between the trans-identified who wish to harm them, and those who don't.

I re-read JK Rowling's original manifesto, whatever you want to call it, that she wrote back in 2020, and one line keeps embedding itself in my head: "The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass." And I find that quite unsettling. Surely those 'robust systems' should remain in place, and any candidate for sex reassignment should undergo this over a number of years before being legally declared a woman, and GRCs should be issued only to those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery?

I'm ashamed to say that it's only now dawning on me that JKR was right all along - even if I vehemently disagree with the apparent mentality some have that Daniel Radcliffe, Rupert Grint and Emma Watson should show her blind loyalty and agree with everything she says/does because they starred in the movie adaptations of her books. All four people are fully-grown adults with minds of their own, capable of forming their own opinions.

Anyway, these are my (probably incoherent and contradictory) thoughts - but I promise I'm learning, and am open to any and all views/critique on this!
Although public toilets are currently in the news, the issue is far wider. Men (claiming to be women) have pushed their way into many female-only spaces, such as
Hospital wards,
grape centres,
Women's prisons,
Women's shelters,
Giving same-sex, intimate care to a disabled woman,
Breast-feeding groups,
les groups.

Most of these are where women feel at their most vulnerable and want privacy and dignity. The company of other women can be a comfort at these times and give support.

Women are at a physical disadvantage to most men, and those that have suffered at the hands of men can be left traumatised and wish to avoid being in confined spaces with unknown men. Historically women have had to fight for these women-only spaces too.

There are, of course, many "good" men. Decent men. Men who can be trusted. But because there's no way of differentiating between these men and those who are violent or have fetishes a blanket ban exists to keep all men out.

Then there is privacy and dignity. Imagine a woman being admitted as an emergency to hospital and she's on her period. This actually happened to me and as I was concussed I wasn't thinking straight. I wasn't allowed to walk to the toilet and had to use a bedside commode, where I was assisted to change my pad by a nurse. Of course the curtains round my bed were drawn, but there's really very little privacy.

Imagine this happening to a young woman today, only there's a man in the next bed to her, and he has a period fetish. What is he going to overhear? What is he going to see - in my confused state, once I was allowed more movement I wasn't getting in and out of bed in a ladylike way! I was wearing a hospital gown and had no modesty at all. Would the woman leave blood on the sheets for him to see? The woman is unwittingly taking part in his sexual fetish without giving any consent to do so. In contrast a female patient is extremely unlikely to have such a fetish and far more likely to be understanding.

This is just one example of women needing privacy and dignity. And also just one example of male fetishes. Some men simply enjoy making women feeling uncomfortable by their presence. Others have a humiliation fetish and enjoy being forced to leave a female space. The list goes on. A fetish or a kink is fine only when carried out in private between fully consenting adults.

Men, of course, also deserve their privacy and dignity and women claiming to be men shouldn't be in their spaces either. Gay men should be able to meet without women turning up saying they're gay men.

It applies to both sexes. The reason why we hear more about men trying to enter women-only spaces is because of the safety aspect - a woman is unlikely to be a physical threat to most men. But also, when we think about privacy and dignity, there's a lot more involved for women than for men, because of our reproductive system. Returning to public toilets, some have very little room. Do you think that a pregnant woman wants to squeeze herself past a man in order to wash her hands? Does a woman suffering a miscarriage want men around her? Even if these are decent men?

A Gender Recognition Certificate used to be extremely difficult to obtain and the vast majority of AGP men (Look it up if you don't know the term) were weeded out. It took many years and many interviews with professionals. As a result the number of men with a GRC were tiny and most women wouldn't encounter one in their lifetime.

The situation now is very different. Not only is a GRC is very easy to obtain, but many men are simply using the Trans umbrella to access women's spaces. Until very recently, you could simply say you were a woman and demand access to women's spaces. That's it.

The counter argument is that no man is going to go to the effort of pretending to be a woman just to attack women. Unfortunately it has happened. But is a man going to go to the effort of pretending to be a woman to satisfy a fetish? Of course he is.

Finally, although you say it doesn't directly affect you, it does affect young gay teenagers. There's a significant number of men who would, in time, realise that they're gay, thinking that they're women instead.
 
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Honestly, no.

Like I said, I've never given this issue much thought until recently, which doesn't reflect well on me, I know! My thoughts on this were extremely close-minded up until recently; I honestly thought it was as simple as 'not all trans people pose a threat to women', 'not every trans person who uses a women's bathroom wants to harm women' etc.

It's only now I'm really and truly starting to think about it that I realise there's much more to it than my previous way of thinking, and that if you let a man in a woman's bathroom, he could quite easily - and may well do - overpower a woman, assault her etc.
The problem is that all 'trans' people are not people who have gender dysphoria. There are men (AGPs) who get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothes, or accessing our spaces, or sniffing used sanitary towels, out putting them in their knickers, or wanking in a woman's space etc etc. Are you now beginning to understand why we don't want them there?

ETA And that's before expecting lesbians to accept 'girl fool'!
 
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My mum used to go to aquaerobics and the pool changing rooms were one big open space with two cubicles so most of the women in the class got changed in the open space. Then a TIM joined. A man who had no surgery, wore a wig and fake bits. He decided he was going to use the women’s changing rooms. A 6 foot bloke getting his rooster out in a space where largely elderly women were getting naked.

The club’s solution was to offer the women use of the men’s changing room, as they were completely unoccupied as the only man in the class was in the women’s. That is a bleeping mental state of affairs and it seems utterly ludicrous it ever happened. It may still be happening - my mum doesn’t go to the class any more.

As for being ‘out’ I am to my friends and family but some friends have NB teenagers so we have a tacit agreement not to discuss and I do respect the kids’ pronouns because they’re children (and autistic). I have lost a lot of good friends though. Am not out at work at all - I’m currently working with people with pronouns in their signatures although I suspect it’s virtue signalling rather than believing in gender woo
 
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