Gender Discussion #8

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Not quite, Suzanne Moore was bullied out of the job by Owen Jones and many others who signed a letter criticising her for writing an article about womens sex based rights. Which in the language of OJ and other TRAs is 'transphobic'. They claimed she made them feel 'unsafe' despite the fact that some of them were based in the US

On the subject of Ellen/ Elliott, here is her coming out as a lesbian statement from 2014
What happened since then? I feel a very positive tone from this statement, it’s the opposite of how EP comes across nowadays.

It’s like how Eddie Izzard used to embrace the fact that he was a man wearing women’s clothes (or “my clothes” as he put it) but now claims to have ‘girl mode’ as if that is somehow more progressive. Did someone say social contagion?
 
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What happened since then? I feel a very positive tone from this statement, it’s the opposite of how EP comes across nowadays.

It’s like how Eddie Izzard used to embrace the fact that he was a man wearing women’s clothes (or “my clothes” as he put it) but now claims to have ‘girl mode’ as if that is somehow more progressive. Did someone say social contagion?
yeah exactly, it seems like EP has been really affected by comments like that frm the media and it has affected her mental health very severely
 
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There is a condition called Body Integrity Disorder (sometimes called transabled) where sufferers feel dysphoria related to parts of their bodies. Sometimes they end up amputating their own hands/legs to make the dysphoria stop or, in the case of the woman below, make themselves blind on purpose. Luckily doctors aren't going around amputating legs left, right and centre though.



I found an article a while back now on this. It was from the 2000s and was looking at how people with this disorder were connecting with each other on the internet. I found the language these people used very similar to how trans people describe their feelings. So they would say things like 'my left leg isn't really mine, I'm not supposed to have it' etc. I watched a Monroe Bergdorf documentary where they were getting brow surgery and they talked about how 'this isn't really my brow'.
 
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Seems very strange to go from being so cross about someone saying you dressed like a man a few years ago, to now thinking you’re an actual man? There’s something so weird about all this stuff tbh.
 
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Seems very strange to go from being so cross about someone saying you dressed like a man a few years ago, to now thinking you’re an actual man? There’s something so weird about all this stuff tbh.
I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but...👀 this is all escalating so quicky in this past year o_O. People are turning backs on reason, medical ethics and fairness.
 
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I understand your body is your body but having nipples removed seems very odd to me. This and gender nullification surgery makes me question the integrity of the doctors and surgeons allowing this because it doesn’t seem healthy for both your physical and mental health?

Read a bit more about nullification and feel quite queasy. Didn’t see any pictures which I’m glad of because I don’t think my stomach can take it!
Needless to say, the young person who had her breasts and nipples removed has a long history of mental health problems. Their bio says “autistic, queer, trans, non-binary, personality disorder” 😐

And yet the doctors just capitulated to this double mastectomy/nipple removal? Makes you wonder whether there’s a trend to just let people mutilate themselves, MH issues be damned, because it’s just easier than addressing the MH issues 🤷‍♀️

I also wonder whether letting people amputate any healthy body part of their choice, like in Body Integrity Disorder, is the next logical step.

I don't see things ending well for Elliott Page. He/they (not sure of pronoun) looks suicidal to me.
I think EP’s outward appearance is a good indication of their inner turmoil. I can’t see things ending well. I hope they quietly withdraw from acting, because I can’t see a successful career continuing beyond this point.
 
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That nullification stuff is horrendous. I think anyone willing to perform that surgery should be frankly struck off for gross negligence. Complete exploitation of mentally vulnerable people.
 
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I found an article a while back now on this. It was from the 2000s and was looking at how people with this disorder were connecting with each other on the internet. I found the language these people used very similar to how trans people describe their feelings. So they would say things like 'my left leg isn't really mine, I'm not supposed to have it' etc. I watched a Monroe Bergdorf documentary where they were getting brow surgery and they talked about how 'this isn't really my brow'.
Similarly (and a bit weirdly 🙈) I was on a forum a few months ago and someone made friends with me because I mentioned my disability... it quickly became obvious that they had a fetish for disabled people, but not just in the sense of wanting to date a disabled person - wanting to make themselves disabled, finding the idea of it sexually attractive. In this case, this person also had BIID and didn’t ‘relate’ (their words) to certain bits of their body so took pleasure in ‘disabling’ them because, ‘well, what use did they have for them otherwise’ (their words). As I looked through their posts it actually painted a very saddening, if creepy, picture because they had gone from being perfectly able bodied and just fantasising to then becoming disabled to the point of being reliant on others, and slipping Into severe depression as the reality was obviously so far fetched from their original fantasy. It was bloody weird but I can see parallels between this and the transgender debacle 100%
 
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Similarly (and a bit weirdly 🙈) I was on a forum a few months ago and someone made friends with me because I mentioned my disability... it quickly became obvious that they had a fetish for disabled people, but not just in the sense of wanting to date a disabled person - wanting to make themselves disabled, finding the idea of it sexually attractive. In this case, this person also had BIID and didn’t ‘relate’ (their words) to certain bits of their body so took pleasure in ‘disabling’ them because, ‘well, what use did they have for them otherwise’ (their words). As I looked through their posts it actually painted a very saddening, if creepy, picture because they had gone from being perfectly able bodied and just fantasising to then becoming disabled to the point of being reliant on others, and slipping Into severe depression as the reality was obviously so far fetched from their original fantasy. It was bloody weird but I can see parallels between this and the transgender debacle 100%
I wondered this about the woman someone posted a video of who made herself blind, it must be really difficult for all the people around her, obviously you never know what could happen to anyone, someone could easily have an accident and become reliant on those around them, but it would grate a bit if you knew they had done it on purpose
 
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I wondered this about the woman someone posted a video of who made herself blind, it must be really difficult for all the people around her, obviously you never know what could happen to anyone, someone could easily have an accident and become reliant on those around them, but it would grate a bit if you knew they had done it on purpose
Exactly. This also has parallels with people who on Twitter we would term as "transwidows" who suddenly have to deal with a sexual and romantic partner who now insists of presenting as a stereotype of the other sex, and find themselves between a rock and a hard place because they have to suddenly 1) be "supportive" 2) can't be seen to be upset 3) pretend to be okay with suddenly having a partner taking hormones or having parts lopped off or grafted on 4) if they say they want to leave then they get called hateful and a transphobe 5) some get conditioned into staying 6) their private life becomes everyones business, imagine the gossip! I love my husband but if he turned around to me and said he was a TW and expected me to put on a performance of suddenly being a 'lesbian' couple I wouldn't be able to cope! It's cruel to expect someone to suddenly change their sexuality, rights to be upset, because their partner has made a transformation. I hope E Page's ex doesn't receive hate for leaving, even if she was outwardly supportive in the press.

Also, with regards to mastectomies, from what I understand for cancer purposes the NHS only tend to perform them as a treatment, a last resort? So why are so many dysphoric people having them in their teens? All surgery brings risk of complications and possible death, why are we as a society saying it's okay for girls to have a double mastectomy aged less than 20 but women with cancer are on waiting lists based on severity and so many do not get the treatment in time? I fear kids going for such procedures will come as common as getting ears pierced. It's all being trivialised so much.

Regarding disabilites, there are so many people on social media who seem to WANT to suffer that they are making a mockery of people with actual conditions and that to me me suggests those with actual requirements for help, surgery, support are being less heard, because of the loud noise of fetishists demanding life altering surgeries. It's bonkers.

I am in my nature typically a sensitive and empathetic person but I look around and think so many people have lost their minds! I refuse to believe this is ok!
 
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There are so many levels to all this. In terms of the people wishing to be disabled I guess some doctors may do the surgery as the risk of someone chopping their own leg off is much worse but regardless of this it raises some huge moral and ethical issues for me. From the video of the blind lady, she had two weeks with this therapist and then he put drain cleaner in her eyes, how anyone can justify their reasons for doing that is beyond me. I think money must be the drive behind these doctors, most if not all of these patients have mental health issues and chopping and changing bits of their body is not going to solve those.
 
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Exactly. This also has parallels with people who on Twitter we would term as "transwidows" who suddenly have to deal with a sexual and romantic partner who now insists of presenting as a stereotype of the other sex, and find themselves between a rock and a hard place because they have to suddenly 1) be "supportive" 2) can't be seen to be upset 3) pretend to be okay with suddenly having a partner taking hormones or having parts lopped off or grafted on 4) if they say they want to leave then they get called hateful and a transphobe 5) some get conditioned into staying 6) their private life becomes everyones business, imagine the gossip! I love my husband but if he turned around to me and said he was a TW and expected me to put on a performance of suddenly being a 'lesbian' couple I wouldn't be able to cope! It's cruel to expect someone to suddenly change their sexuality, rights to be upset, because their partner has made a transformation. I hope E Page's ex doesn't receive hate for leaving, even if she was outwardly supportive in the press.

Also, with regards to mastectomies, from what I understand for cancer purposes the NHS only tend to perform them as a treatment, a last resort? So why are so many dysphoric people having them in their teens? All surgery brings risk of complications and possible death, why are we as a society saying it's okay for girls to have a double mastectomy aged less than 20 but women with cancer are on waiting lists based on severity and so many do not get the treatment in time? I fear kids going for such procedures will come as common as getting ears pierced. It's all being trivialised so much.

Regarding disabilites, there are so many people on social media who seem to WANT to suffer that they are making a mockery of people with actual conditions and that to me me suggests those with actual requirements for help, surgery, support are being less heard, because of the loud noise of fetishists demanding life altering surgeries. It's bonkers.

I am in my nature typically a sensitive and empathetic person but I look around and think so many people have lost their minds! I refuse to believe this is ok!
A good example of this in another area to me is mental health. So many people make it out to be "trendy" to have "anxiety and depression", make mocking tiktok's out of it etc and use it as buzzwords. But if they had even half of a clue what is actually like to live with debilitating mental illness, they wouldn't be making light of it at all. People have such a thing now with glorifying horrible conditions that people struggle all their lives to get any meaningful support or treatment for and I can't fathom why. Why does *anyone* want to be mentally or physically ill?
 
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Exactly. This also has parallels with people who on Twitter we would term as "transwidows" who suddenly have to deal with a sexual and romantic partner who now insists of presenting as a stereotype of the other sex, and find themselves between a rock and a hard place because they have to suddenly 1) be "supportive" 2) can't be seen to be upset 3) pretend to be okay with suddenly having a partner taking hormones or having parts lopped off or grafted on 4) if they say they want to leave then they get called hateful and a transphobe 5) some get conditioned into staying 6) their private life becomes everyones business, imagine the gossip! I love my husband but if he turned around to me and said he was a TW and expected me to put on a performance of suddenly being a 'lesbian' couple I wouldn't be able to cope! It's cruel to expect someone to suddenly change their sexuality, rights to be upset, because their partner has made a transformation. I hope E Page's ex doesn't receive hate for leaving, even if she was outwardly supportive in the press.

Also, with regards to mastectomies, from what I understand for cancer purposes the NHS only tend to perform them as a treatment, a last resort? So why are so many dysphoric people having them in their teens? All surgery brings risk of complications and possible death, why are we as a society saying it's okay for girls to have a double mastectomy aged less than 20 but women with cancer are on waiting lists based on severity and so many do not get the treatment in time? I fear kids going for such procedures will come as common as getting ears pierced. It's all being trivialised so much.

Regarding disabilites, there are so many people on social media who seem to WANT to suffer that they are making a mockery of people with actual conditions and that to me me suggests those with actual requirements for help, surgery, support are being less heard, because of the loud noise of fetishists demanding life altering surgeries. It's bonkers.

I am in my nature typically a sensitive and empathetic person but I look around and think so many people have lost their minds! I refuse to believe this is ok!
yeah exactly, in terms of the "transwidow" thing it is interesting to compare it to people whose partners come out as gay and how different people's reactions are, no one (mostly anyway) expects their partner to be thrilled about basically being lied to for years, nor do they expect the gay/lesbian partner to stay with someone they are not attracted to, why should it be different if someone changes sex?
I wonder about the legal implications, do these people sign some kind of waiver agreeing to this unneccesary surgery?
 
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People constantly insist that the use of "they" as singular is grammatically correct. OK, but it'd still be "they are" not "they is." I recently came across a Wikipedia article for a nonbinary person and it said "they is a graduate of XXX university." Is they? Is they really?
 
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I wonder if there is a correlation between lack of MH services or people who have had negative mental health services and this being the surgery they go for.
That would be really interesting to know, I wish the government would put more money into MH services rather than funding for these surgeries
 
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I wonder if there is a correlation between lack of MH services or people who have had negative mental health services and this being the surgery they go for.
I think there must be, even if your desire to have such surgery is not down to MH (personally I think it will be) surely the trauma that comes with it such decisions will have a negative effect on your MH. If they had MH intervention earlier perhaps they wouldn’t go so far.

I think a lot of our MH issues of today are down to social media, those suffering alone go to the internet for help and that is not the place.
 
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