All my life I’ve had this. I can’t believe we are at a point in lunacy where people are campaigning for male rapists to be placed in female jails yet black women are still subject to masculinisation
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It's people trotting out cliches they have heard, it is meaningless rit so try not to take it personally. I'm sorry you're upset, I am too
Eddie Izzard is a useful tool (I may or may not have chosen this word deliberately
) for this discussion regarding women's spaces. He claims to be a gender-fluid trans woman. When asked when he stops being Suzy, he said it's 'when he kicks off his heels'. Now, it seems to me that he is just reinventing the fact that he is actually a cross-dresser as he was previously happily known as: being a woman isn't something that we women can stop being merely by 'kicking off our heels', either literally or metaphorically speaking. But, never mind, let's take him at his word.
What this means is that on the days that he is out and about in heels and makeup, Eddie thinks that he's a woman called Suzy. He thus wants to use women's toilets: we've seen him doing so. But if he goes out for an acting job as Eddie, he'll line up outside the gents.
Surely it's clear that this is highly problematic? Aside from the question of happens on the days when he's identifying as Suzy but is unhelpfully wearing jeans and trainers, what we have is man who wants to go into women's spaces at certain times purely based on his feeling that he's a woman at those times.
I've used Eddie Izzard as an example because he shows the absurdity of saying that TWAW. If this were true, then Eddie Izzard changes sex daily; perhaps even multiple times a day. But the wider point is that even if a trans woman always presents as a trans woman and says that they identify as a woman, they are not a woman.
And importantly, if you allow Eddie Izzard when he's identifying as Suzy into women's spaces, how do you prevent Isla Bryson (Adam Graham) or other predators from doing the same? Who becomes the gatekeeper? This is crux of the matter. We can't tell who is a potential predator/AGP and who isn't. And as others have said, it isn't just about safety; it's also about dignity. I don't want to share a bathroom with Eddie Izzard regardless of his wearing heels, because I know that he's male.
@ahkrin, you mention trans people who 'pass'. Well, I agree with @Ekathrina, I don't think that there are many trans women who women wouldn't recognise as men. And if a few men do pass, well that doesn't change the principle that trans women should not be in women's spaces. It's like saying that just because some 16/17 year olds look older than their age and manage to buy alcohol, the legal age for buying it might as well be abolished.
Regarding women who might look manly, as @Tofino says, the fact that there might be misunderstandings about individual women who 'look manly' also shouldn't be used to abandon the principle. And if single sex spaces are properly maintained, the very few ambiguous people are unlikely to be challenged. There is heightened concern now because of the exponential increase in men claiming to be trans women.
) for this discussion regarding women's spaces. He claims to be a gender-fluid trans woman. When asked when he stops being Suzy, he said it's 'when he kicks off his heels'. Now, it seems to me that he is just reinventing the fact that he is actually a cross-dresser as he was previously happily known as: being a woman isn't something that we women can stop being merely by 'kicking off our heels', either literally or metaphorically speaking. But, never mind, let's take him at his word.What this means is that on the days that he is out and about in heels and makeup, Eddie thinks that he's a woman called Suzy. He thus wants to use women's toilets: we've seen him doing so. But if he goes out for an acting job as Eddie, he'll line up outside the gents.
Surely it's clear that this is highly problematic? Aside from the question of happens on the days when he's identifying as Suzy but is unhelpfully wearing jeans and trainers, what we have is man who wants to go into women's spaces at certain times purely based on his feeling that he's a woman at those times.
I've used Eddie Izzard as an example because he shows the absurdity of saying that TWAW. If this were true, then Eddie Izzard changes sex daily; perhaps even multiple times a day. But the wider point is that even if a trans woman always presents as a trans woman and says that they identify as a woman, they are not a woman.
And importantly, if you allow Eddie Izzard when he's identifying as Suzy into women's spaces, how do you prevent Isla Bryson (Adam Graham) or other predators from doing the same? Who becomes the gatekeeper? This is crux of the matter. We can't tell who is a potential predator/AGP and who isn't. And as others have said, it isn't just about safety; it's also about dignity. I don't want to share a bathroom with Eddie Izzard regardless of his wearing heels, because I know that he's male.
@ahkrin, you mention trans people who 'pass'. Well, I agree with @Ekathrina, I don't think that there are many trans women who women wouldn't recognise as men. And if a few men do pass, well that doesn't change the principle that trans women should not be in women's spaces. It's like saying that just because some 16/17 year olds look older than their age and manage to buy alcohol, the legal age for buying it might as well be abolished.
Regarding women who might look manly, as @Tofino says, the fact that there might be misunderstandings about individual women who 'look manly' also shouldn't be used to abandon the principle. And if single sex spaces are properly maintained, the very few ambiguous people are unlikely to be challenged. There is heightened concern now because of the exponential increase in men claiming to be trans women.
It's very rare to see a trans man who passes, even from a distance. Unless they've had facial feminisation, Adam's apple shaving, hairline lowering etc. There's always a giveaway. I mean look at Dylan Mulvaney and Caitlyn Jenner who have had all these surgeries and more plus stylists and makeup artists. Still they look like men, unless they photoshop themselves into oblivion like Lia Thomas.
I'd also read Elliot Page as a woman still.
100%. I lived with one. It all boiled down to his fetish. His "female personality" was nothing more than a mixture of the misogynistic, pornified idea of what he thought women were, and parts of my personality that he tries to copy because he wants to be me. There is nothing female about it.
Quite a few of the trans men I’ve seen on social media do really pass as men, I think it’s the power of testosterone. I don’t think Elliot Page has taken it because she looks the same as she did, minus her breasts. Frail, tiny, dare I say it - a feminine face. It’s really beyond belief that the world is supposed to look at this person we’ve all known as a woman and just be like yeah, that’s a dude 
it’s insane. I can understand some (non celebs) can go stealth so to speak and live their lives as men (as opposed to ‘trans’). I actually have more respect for those living this way as it seems like that is what the point of the whole transition was for - to live as a man. Not bang on about being trans their whole lives and flying flags.
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But with trans women, I have said it before but I can always, always tell. Even if they are gorgeous and somewhat ‘pass’. I’m not saying this to be unkind. It’s just a fact. It must be something in built in me as a woman. I just know.
it’s insane. I can understand some (non celebs) can go stealth so to speak and live their lives as men (as opposed to ‘trans’). I actually have more respect for those living this way as it seems like that is what the point of the whole transition was for - to live as a man. Not bang on about being trans their whole lives and flying flags.---
But with trans women, I have said it before but I can always, always tell. Even if they are gorgeous and somewhat ‘pass’. I’m not saying this to be unkind. It’s just a fact. It must be something in built in me as a woman. I just know.
There is no "transgender science", because transgenderism is a perceived to be a mental health disorder, no scientist believes that there are people who have been born in the wrong body, just as no scientist thinks that any human can change sex. Gender is a social construct, and just a few years ago, we were all very keen to stop the gender limitations and expectations, we encouraged our sons to play with dolls and toy kitchens, we pushed our daughters into studying engineering and technology. Now, if a boy wants to push a dolls pram, or dress up as a princess, the world screams "Trans!" and the poor kid gets physically and chemically castrated. Any girl who likes short hair and wearing trousers is encouraged to undergo double mastectomy and take testosterone. This is an extremely dangerous and sexist ideology, anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.
As for comparing trans identified males to black women...words fail me. Honestly, if you actually think that this is a reasonable argument, then you are just bleeping trash. Absolute trash.
As for comparing trans identified males to black women...words fail me. Honestly, if you actually think that this is a reasonable argument, then you are just bleeping trash. Absolute trash.
Also, re Eddie Izzard kicking off his heels and that’s Suzy gone. Man I wish I could do this when I have a menstrual cramp that’s got me bent double in pain or when I’m dealing with the mental load of my family (as women do EVERYTHING), or when I look at my payslip and it’s lower than all the men I know. I wish I could stop being weeweegie and become Jim, a man free of these burdens. How lovely to not be mansplained to as well - because if I say I’m a man called Jim then I am, that’s all u need to do right?
Yes there is something built in you as a woman to detect men because they pose a danger to us. They kill us, they abuse us, they grape us.
From women's aid:
"Over the three-year period April 2016 to March 2019, a total of 222 women were killed by a partner or ex-partner. The majority of suspects were male (218, 98%). This means that during this time period, an average of three women every fortnight were murdered by their male partner or ex-partner. (ONS, 2020B)
One study of 96 cases of domestic abuse recorded by the police found that men are significantly more likely to be repeat perpetrators and significantly more likely than women to use physical violence, threats, and harassment. In a six year tracking period the majority of recorded male perpetrators (83%) had at least two incidents of recorded abuse, with many having a lot more than two and one man having 52 repeat incidents."
This is the reality. Biological sex is the only thing that should count when reporting crime statistics too.
Civil servant given warning after ‘inappropriately’ saying there are two sides to the trans debate (msn.com)
This happened during a conference call on International Women's Day titled 'What Trans is and some of the issues faced'
This happened during a conference call on International Women's Day titled 'What Trans is and some of the issues faced'
This is the real issue behind the trans debate. Unfortunately trans women seem to be so self absorbed that they fail to have any empathy for reality that biological women face.
"Amber Gibson was 16 years old when she was sexually assaulted and murdered by her brother, Connor Gibson. When Stephen Corrigan (45) discovered her body, he intimately touched and concealed her – instead of calling the police. Five months before she was murdered, Amber was grape by Jamie Starrs (20) at his home in Lanarkshire."
www.glamourmagazine.co.uk
"Amber Gibson was 16 years old when she was sexually assaulted and murdered by her brother, Connor Gibson. When Stephen Corrigan (45) discovered her body, he intimately touched and concealed her – instead of calling the police. Five months before she was murdered, Amber was grape by Jamie Starrs (20) at his home in Lanarkshire."
Amber Gibson's murder is a horrific reminder of why male violence against women should be considered a national emergency
On average, three women are killed by a man each week.
SEEN is trying to fight back against the capture of the civil service and any civil servant can join the network.
a DWP investigator claimed that the “event did not appear to be a forum designed to generate debate on both sides of the subject” and therefore it was “inappropriate” and made in the wrong context.
oh surprise. No debate allowed. Bad enough in itself never mind that it happened on IWD.
They hate that it's so obvious for us. They hate that we won't pretend along with them, because that's all it is, playing along with another person's delusions.
Trans women are a subset of men
Trans men are a subset of women
I have no issue with trans people, but their rights are not more important than everyone else's.
Clutching my pearls over here. Is someone trying to conflate American segregation from decades past and suggest anyone GC in 2023 is seriously challenging an elderly or black woman in a ladies bathroom? Your racism is showing under your craving for being marginalised.
I don’t think any trans people pass, not after 5 minutes acquaintance or less. Voice, build, we have an innate recognition of biological sex and we overrule it but we will suspect. What I think is that people are generally polite and kind and make allowances (where they shouldn’t). Trans men are also not a physical threat to men (although men should be able to have single sex spaces too) so people don’t feel the need to make a fuss.
I don’t think any trans people pass, not after 5 minutes acquaintance or less. Voice, build, we have an innate recognition of biological sex and we overrule it but we will suspect. What I think is that people are generally polite and kind and make allowances (where they shouldn’t). Trans men are also not a physical threat to men (although men should be able to have single sex spaces too) so people don’t feel the need to make a fuss.
I'd rather be a terf than a racist.
I’ve actually seen this argument several times lately - “after middle age/menopause women lose their feminine appearance and look more like men!” OK, they might lose superficially feminine features (full lips, smooth skin, etc) but they still have the appearance and bone structure of a woman, no this is not a reason why we should let TIMs into women’s toilets, try againI for one am constantly mistaking my grandma for a man and asking her why she’s going to the women’s toilets when we’re out shoppingas soon as my mum becomes a pensioner the same thing will happen with her
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