Gender Discussion #56

[DoraMaar]

I am here and I didn't call anybody nasty or a terf. I said early on that I agree with many points. I disagree with others but I'm not about to be disrespectful towards someone because of their opinion. Thinking differently to me doesn't necessitate name calling. I simply said I found the thread hostile (this is true but doesn't mean every individual here was hostile towards me and I stand by what I said previously - so many of you are eloquent and witty and i'd like to underline that).

I think generally speaking GC thinking is v black and white - biological female or male, enough said, sort of thing (would you agree?). I just think there are grey areas here. If thinking AGPs are nasty and despicable makes me a terf then so be it! I think there is a huuuuge gap between a male predator sticking on a frock and wig and asking to be called Margaret and a genuine trans woman. And I OF COURSE think that women and children need to be protected but is preventing trans women (not male predators) from accessing female spaces the answer? The awful truth is that if a male predator wants to access a female space he will!

I know a lot of you think transness is mental illness but I disagree. Remember that homosexuality used to be classed as a mental illness (!!). I'm not saying I'm progressive or woke for respecting someone's pronouns. Transgender science is in its infancy and there is a lot to be learned and discovered about it.

Regarding whether I have anyone close to me who is trans, I have a trans friend (female to male) and I dated a trans woman (male to female) many years ago.

I don't think it's fair to be named a handmaiden for thinking there are many shades and layers to transgenderism. Surely you can be both a feminist and supporter of trans rights?

Sorry to anyone whose questions I haven't answered. I opened a can of worms by commenting again because it's hard to say 'I won't contribute again' and then feel ignorant for ignoring people.

Re the thread title, I think in addition to a name change being beneficial to non-GC people not getting lost here, renaming it Gender critical discussion would also benefit GC women who may not have otherwise found this place where like-minded people can share their views.

A final thought is why does there have to be a divide between someone like me who very much wants to dismantle the patriarchy and is a huge advocate for woman's rights yet also supports trans women and the people on this thread? Is it really a 'believe this or we don't want you here' situation?!

"Transgender science is in its infancy and there is a lot to be learned and discovered about it."

It is an ideology, not science. There are no scientists - thinking of people of the stature of Richard Dawkins or Robert Winston - who support the idea that humans can change sex.

 

[VC10]

Sex is Immutable. We are sexed. It cannot change.
There are plenty of Transed people living their lives as best that they can ( often in a difficult World) but that's that. All the Best to them


bleeps can get stuffed, and I'll be calling them out for being a bleep.

 

[ChilliBean]

Ideology vs evidence based facts.

Facts win everytime.

 

[ahkrin]

(I will just clarify that, for me, there is no such thing as trans, just lots of mentally unwell individuals. No-one is born in the wrong body, you cannot change sex, hormones and surgery do not change your sex)

I'm a trans man. I know my biological sex is immutable but to all intents and purposes my gender is male. I have friends of 15+ years and colleagues I've worked with daily for a decade who are unaware of my biology. I wasn't born in the wrong body but aspects of my body caused me intense distress because they meant I was not perceived as I knew myself to be. If I tried to use women's spaces I would be rightly kicked out.

The trouble is that only the trans people who don't pass are visible, and when you're unable to transition until later in life as a trans woman there are changes which make that much more difficult which perpetuates the stereotype of the trucker who thinks a wig and fishnets make them a woman. I have a lot of internalised guilt about not being "out" as trans as do a lot of us who pass, because we contribute to that problem. But I don't identify as a trans person, I identify and am seen by society as a man.

I really wish there was less stuff about trans issues in the media etc because we just want to live our lives and the agenda from both sides to make us a talking point to score political points is bleeping exhausting.

 

[usefullyuseless]

@Elle, you can't be an advocate for women's rights if you support giving away our rights, safety, privacy, dignity and opportunities to men through accepting TWAW.

 

[Metropolis]

If thinking AGPs are nasty and despicable makes me a terf then so be it! I think there is a huuuuge gap between a male predator sticking on a frock and wig and asking to be called Margaret and a genuine trans woman. And I OF COURSE think that women and children need to be protected but is preventing trans women (not male predators) from accessing female spaces the answer?

So how would you distinguish between an AGP and a ‘genuine transwoman’? Short answer is you can’t - none of us can. In the event a man in a dress enters a women’s space, we have to have legislation to protect us - we won’t have time to stick around and question their motives and decide who is ‘genuinely trans’ and who isn’t. Neither should the onus be on women to establish this. So in order to safeguard females and children you have to have a blanket policy of single sex only spaces.

 

[jolly_parsley]

I think generally speaking GC thinking is v black and white - biological female or male, enough said, sort of thing (would you agree?). I just think there are grey areas here. If thinking AGPs are nasty and despicable makes me a terf then so be it! I think there is a huuuuge gap between a male predator sticking on a frock and wig and asking to be called Margaret and a genuine trans woman. And I OF COURSE think that women and children need to be protected but is preventing trans women (not male predators) from accessing female spaces the answer? The awful truth is that if a male predator wants to access a female space he will!

And how are we able to differentiate between the 2? We can’t, so single sex spaces are the only option. If we blur it and say trans women can access women’s spaces then that very much increases the likelihood of predatory men accessing them unchallenged because they’re “women”. With keeping it single sex it decreases the risk of predatory men going in because any witnesses can clearly see it and call it out, without the man protesting and saying “but I’m a woman”.

 

[Metropolis]

If I tried to use women's spaces I would be rightly kicked out.

So you understand why women do not want anyone male in single sex spaces, regardless of how they present? It would be vanishingly rare for a woman not to be able to perceive a transwoman as a man and consequently feel threatened when confronted by such a person in a women’s toilet or changing room.

 

[ahkrin]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

 

[Metropolis]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

As a gender non-conforming female who has been ‘misgendered’ (I didn’t take offence) more than once, as I have said in previous posts, males and females can present / dress as butch or a femme as they like. I find it offensive that you suggest I would exclude people on the basis of appearance / age/ colour. It’s not their appearance I care about, it’s their sex. And if we can’t distinguish between AGPs and trans people with gender dysphoria, how can women be protected? No one seems to be able to come up with an answer to this.

 

[DoraMaar]

I think it's time to bring back the word 'transvestite': 'male transvestite' = a man who dresses in womens clothing, 'female transvestite' = a woman who dresses in male clothing. A 'transsexual' is someone who is attracted to a transvestite.

Also, the French for 'transvestite' is 'trevesti'

ETA - Transvestic Disorder DSM-5 302.3 (F65.1) - Therapedia (theravive.com)

 

[jolly_parsley]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

It’s not about who gets a say it’s about using the spaces for your sex. Single sex spaces worked perfectly fine until men started kicking off about it and saying that putting a dress on made them a woman. Maybe they should stop doing that and we can go back to how things were and let sanity prevail.

I’ve also literally never seen or heard a story about an older woman or Black woman being asked to leave women’s spaces so to me that feels like a bit of a made up argument to make GC women seem even more awful than we’re already made out to be.

 

[Nelly's mum]

I'm a trans man. I know my biological sex is immutable but to all intents and purposes my gender is male. I have friends of 15+ years and colleagues I've worked with daily for a decade who are unaware of my biology. I wasn't born in the wrong body but aspects of my body caused me intense distress because they meant I was not perceived as I knew myself to be. If I tried to use women's spaces I would be rightly kicked out.

The trouble is that only the trans people who don't pass are visible, and when you're unable to transition until later in life as a trans woman there are changes which make that much more difficult which perpetuates the stereotype of the trucker who thinks a wig and fishnets make them a woman. I have a lot of internalised guilt about not being "out" as trans as do a lot of us who pass, because we contribute to that problem. But I don't identify as a trans person, I identify and am seen by society as a man.

I really wish there was less stuff about trans issues in the media etc because we just want to live our lives and the agenda from both sides to make us a talking point to score political points is bleeping exhausting.

Firstly, welcome to the thread . For me, how you identify is irrelevant, as you say sex is immutable. I don't know if you pass as a man, I know I can spot a TIM a mile away!
To me, 'passing' is is not the crucial issue it is to trans people - you do not represent a threat to women if you use Women's safe spaces, the same cannot be said for men who identify as women, these men present the same threat to women as other men.

TRA (overwhelmingly male) who threaten, dox and intimidate women on SM are responsible for the current fall out and political point scoring - the death threats, hate and vitriol come from them, not from women who are seeking to maintain women's hard won sex-based rights.
It sounds as though you want to live your life in peace and without intimidation - the same as me and others on this thread.

 

[Jasminexx02]

Literally just on a group I’m in which is supposed to be for interior design. Needless to say, I’ll be leaving the group.

 

[ahkrin]

As a gender non-conforming female who has been ‘misgendered’ (I didn’t take offence) more than once, as I have said in previous posts, males and females can present / dress as butch or a femme as they like. I find it offensive that you suggest I would exclude people on the basis of appearance / age/ colour. It’s not their appearance I care about, it’s their sex. And if we can’t distinguish between AGPs and trans people with gender dysphoria, how can women be protected? No one seems to be able to come up with an answer to this.

Apologies, I wasn't trying to suggest you would exclude people based on their age or ethnicity, just that those can be factors in how gender is perceived. But yes, it is their appearance you are judging because you wouldn't question someone who appeared to you to be female. Should people have to present their birth certificate? Because if they have a GRC their birth certificate will state their gender not their sex at birth.

It is a difficult issue and there is no clear answer to how women can be protected without also impacting the rights of other women. In theory I should be allowed in women's spaces because I don't have a pen but I know my appearance is male and I know that I no longer experience misogyny so women's spaces are not relevant to me.

It's rubbish that when people implement gender neutral changing rooms and bathrooms it usually comes at the cost of women only facilities because having female, gender neutral and male spaces seems the simplest route but I totally get why people object to gender neutral spaces when they reduce or replace women's facilities. It's lazy cost cutting.

 

[Metropolis]

Literally just on a group I’m in which is supposed to be for interior design. Needless to say, I’ll be leaving the group. View attachment 2672345View attachment 2672346View attachment 2672347View attachment 2672348

I’ve seen it all now - a trigger warning for Harry Potter

 

[weeweegie]

I’m not particularly wanting to get into a big debate but to pick up on what you said Elle about GC people being very black and white about things. I totally see it the other way and think that TRAs look at things completely black and white. When I say I don’t believe you can ‘be’ the opposite sex, that does not mean I believe women should be feminine and men should be masculine. That’s the opposite to what I think. If we were able to expand what it means to be a man or woman to include dressing anyway you want, wearing make up if you want (or don’t), social norms to be the same (as you mention dismantle the patriarchy, yes!! I want that too).

From my point of view if you are pro trans then you are the one with the black and white thinking because you believe that by presenting yourself externally in a different way is what makes you the opposite sex. It’s reducing us all to stereotypes and keeps us in boxes. It’s why awkward young girls who are not ‘conventionally pretty’ are believing in their droves that they are not female, but non binary or a boy. To me that’s such internalised misogyny.

So do I respect Eddie Izzard and his pronouns for example? No I don’t. I used to have a lot of respect for him for being a bloke who wore makeup etc, with no shame and no lies about being a woman. He said on stage ‘I’m a bloke in a dress’ and for me that is still true. What I realise now is that he’s a raging AGP and is getting his kicks from people calling him she/her and feckin Suzy!! It’s a joke. Yet he’s been clever in saying he’s gender fluid, ah ha, of course, because he’s still playing men and cashing that lovely big male paycheck.

As for letting trans women into female only spaces, of course none of think all trans women are predators but we also don’t think all men are predators but yet we don’t allow men in. And since when does the privacy and dignity of a woman or girl uncomfortable changing in front of a man who thinks he’s a woman, not matter? Why does the man who thinks he’s a woman matter more to you Elle? Genuine question.

 

[Nelly's mum]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

Ahh - I see the racist Black trope card has been played
I have met many older women and Black women - in fact I've even met old Black women - and they are all recognisably women, every one of them, there is no risk of discrimination there

Appearance is not the issue here, biological sex is the issue.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

I’m sorry if I have misunderstood but are you saying that older women and black women look more manly than other women? And that other women might think that they are men?

 

[Metropolis]

Apologies, I wasn't trying to suggest you would exclude people based on their age or ethnicity, just that those can be factors in how gender is perceived. But yes, it is their appearance you are judging because you wouldn't question someone who appeared to you to be female. Should people have to present their birth certificate? Because if they have a GRC their birth certificate will state their gender not their sex at birth.

It is a difficult issue and there is no clear answer to how women can be protected without also impacting the rights of other women. In theory I should be allowed in women's spaces because I don't have a pen but I know my appearance is male and I know that I no longer experience misogyny so women's spaces are not relevant to me.

It's rubbish that when people implement gender neutral changing rooms and bathrooms it usually comes at the cost of women only facilities because having female, gender neutral and male spaces seems the simplest route but I totally get why people object to gender neutral spaces when they reduce or replace women's facilities. It's lazy cost cutting.

I think single sex spaces should be kept sex exclusive, but would support having a ‘gender neutral’ space for people who don’t wish to use the facilities alligned to their sex. Like you say though, this would be expensive which is why a lot of organisations are happy to convert a set of existing toilets / changing rooms (usually the womens) to ‘gender neutral’ so women’s needs are still perceived as less important than men’s.

I think GRC’s are problematic. In order to get one, you have to ‘live as the opposite gender’ for a set amount of time. That in itself reduces men and women to stereotypes. I still don’t understand what ‘living as the opposite gender’ would mean in practical terms.