Gender Discussion #56

[PinkandTwinkly]

I've been dipping into this thread in and off, I've never seen myself as particularly gender critical, and most definitely not a Terf.

My feeling has always been, a man is a man and a woman a woman, but if Harry wants to don a frock and call himself Sally, as long as it doesn't effect me, let him crack on

Over the last year, 18 months or so my feelings have changed.
I'm not sure if it's old age (approaching 43 ) making me less tolerant or what it is but I'm becoming really aware of how trans rights, and appealing to the trans community is seen as the most important thing irregardless of anything else and even its not needed. And they are trampling over woman and rights they have fought for to do this it's wrong.

I don't want to share toilets, changing rooms with men, I don't want to be trying bras on and see a cock bulge. Woman should not have to feel uncomfortable to appease a few

Men don't menstruate. They don't need period products. Woman used to have to hide away at that time, as it was seen as dirty and gross to talk about. There was a limited range of uncomfortable impractical products. That's changing after years and years of woman innovating and fighting for change, and guess what men now want a go..

Men are biologically stronger than woman, they should not be allowed to join in sports. It's a fact.

I don't need the places I buy my toothpaste, trainers or tomatoes from to be all political about trans rights. I just want to follow them of social media to be advised or new products or sales not anything else

Infact so many companies, my employer included have gone on the trans bandwagon. I'd ignored the suggestion we used pronouns, but the other month our PC/laptop screen savers were changed to a pink/blue montage highlighting "our" support for trans causes, internal communications magazines are banging on about trans "issues" far more regularly than is representive of the minute amount trans people that are employed the company.
Its incessant. I declined the new rainbow lanyard (the one with the pale blue, pink, brown triangle on the standard rainbow) and was told it was expected of the management team to wear them... I didn't, and haven't, but have been asked a few times why, and if I need one.



This is really waffly.. But is suppose what I'm saying is I'm now one of you

 

[JustHereForTheAgriculture]

I wonder, if Brianna had been a biological female, killed in the same way, would India be posting about it so passionately?
Or at all?
Says a lot really.

 

[Tofino]

This thread taught me about AGPs, which I wasn't aware of before. It is frightening that there are men wanting to take advantage of trans-ness and pretend to be a trans woman to gain access to women's spaces. Unfortunately, there are always going to be predators out there and I don't think it's fair or accurate to to put the blame on trans-ness for that.

Trans is real, trans is valid. As is non-binary. We can agree to disagree on that. Or disagree to disagree!

Ah yes, that old line. There will always be predators anyway [so there’s no need for safeguarding women and children from them]

Let’s keep the men happy even if it puts women and children at more risk.

Funnily enough the men in my life don’t have an issue with being excluded from women’s spaces because they are decent, respectful human beings. They don’t think their exclusion means we are calling them predators either.

 

[Miggsy]

TRA logic:

1 trans person is killed - every GC person has blood on their hands.

Andrew Miller/Isla Bryson commit horrific crimes - you can’t demonise the entire trans community plus they aren’t even really trans anyway (dissolving commitment to self ID)

Sorry if been posted but there was a particularly loathsome comment on the BG thread of someone saying they were worried “terfs” might be on the jury and find the accused not guilty to make a point/in furtherance of an agenda.

These people really are completely detached from reality

 

[gigilouxx]

I’m 27, held my views for a long time

My issue is where do schools etc draw the line in respecting kids wishes. When I was young I absolutely hated being black, I wanted to be white, or light skin. I hated my hair, my nose everything. I got given books about famous black women like Oprah and Denise Lewis, how Jamaica (that’s where I’m from) thrives in the Olympics, was that wrong? Should I have been told to bleach my skin and have a referral for rhinoplasty on the NHS?
My own daughters had struggles with how she views herself and was taught to love herself for her, love her culture and her heritage. That’s what we should be doing, not just getting the shovel everytime a child says shit

 

[Dinate]

This is a brilliant article by Daley Thompson on why trans athletes should not compete in female events. Honestly, I could quote every sentence; it's so on point:

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...es-female-events-finished-DALEY-THOMPSON.html

He talks about the unfair advantage that men who have gone through puberty have, including being stronger; having longer limbs; better power to weight ratios and larger heart and blood volumes. Advantages which cannot be overridden by simply reducing testosterone levels and which mean that they will always outperform women. It's so obvious to us, but bears restating for the hard of understanding.

He also mentions that in being 'compassionate' to trans people, society is now being unfair to women as an 'unintended' consequence. He talks about the need to protect and preserve women's safe spaces including changing rooms, prisons and refuges.

He also takes a swipe at Starmer for not knowing what a woman is: he suggests that he ask any 5 year old if he's in any doubt. And he stands up for JK Rowling, Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova.

Like I said, the article is just spot on. I felt like applauding at the end of it. We need more people like him, who won't be cancelled, to stand up and state the obvious. That being said, as Daley himself says in the article, I feel that in sport at least, the tide is definitely turning in the right direction.

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

I cannot express how deeply offensive I find it when revolting sick in the head men like this fucker are referred to as women and she.

This is what using preferred pronouns leads to. If you decide to be polite and kind, at what point do you decide not to use them for a particular man? When he commits a crime or is accused of one? It’s a nonsense.

 

[Metropolis]

Hi. Hope everyone's well.

I've been reading along here and there but stopped posting as I felt my contributions weren't welcome.

I saw @Sir Lancelot's posts and I too have seen that this thread can be quite hostile.

For me, the issue is that the thread title is misleading. It isn't a Gender discussion thread, it's a Gender critical discussion thread and that distinction is important.

If the thread were named correctly it would stop someone like me jumping in to criticise someone for disrespecting someone's pronouns as I know there'd be no point. The fact is there is no room for discussion as everyone here is GC and if you're not GC your opinion is likely to be disregarded or simply laughed at.

Ultimately, I'm never going to say that trans women aren't women because I don't believe that.

This thread taught me about AGPs, which I wasn't aware of before. It is frightening that there are men wanting to take advantage of trans-ness and pretend to be a trans woman to gain access to women's spaces. Unfortunately, there are always going to be predators out there and I don't think it's fair or accurate to to put the blame on trans-ness for that.

Trans is real, trans is valid. As is non-binary. We can agree to disagree on that. Or disagree to disagree!

This thread criticises people for using and 'pushing' certain terminologies but I was told off for referring to a gay woman as 'queer'. I am a bisexual woman (yes, a biological woman) who identities as queer. I now know it's offensive to GC lesbians to refer to them as queer. My point is you are always going to inadvertently offend someone with your choice of words.

This is the only thread where I've felt scared or apprehensive to post for fear of rudeness and rebuttal. And I was polite and willing to learn and yet distrusted and put on ignore by certain people.

I happily looked at GC resources shared and even shared some of my own GC aligned findings. Did I dare send anything supportive of trans people? No. This isn't a two-way street.

So although I learned things from this thread, I remain an advocate for trans people and won't be contributing further.

Cue responses about science and biology and 'don't let the door hit you on the way out' and 'we knew we were right not to welcome you here' or 'I'm not reading all that'. If you want to learn about why trans people are valid human beings feel free to watch some Contrapoints videos on YouTube.

The thing is, Elle, that most people here value discussion and respectful debate and also evidence-based arguments. No one is saying that people who say they are trans have less validity as human beings than people who don’t say they are trans. Every person is a human being and objectively has equal value, whatever belief system they adhere to.

You say that ultimately, I'm never going to say that trans women aren't women because I don't believe that. I am interested in why you believe transwomen are women and what informs your beliefs?

How would you distinguish between an AGP who says they ‘feel like a woman inside’ and a confused, autistic teen girl who wants to opt out of womanhood because of social pressures on girls and young women? How can someone be something they’ve never and will never experience? The logic just doesn’t stand up. Why would you believe a trans woman is a woman because they feel they are (because ultimately that is all you have to go on) and not that an anorexic person is fat because they feel they are? I am interested in what makes people believe this ideology.

 

[gigilouxx]

Being a black woman isn’t fucking comparable to being a man in a dress what the fuck, we’re WOMEN, it’s actually hurtful at this point

 

[usefullyuseless]

Welcome to TERF Club!

Spoiler: The first rule of TERF club

Meaning of woman: adult human female.

Meaning of female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes (sperm)

Spoiler: The second rule of TERF club

Meaning of man: adult human male.

Meaning of male: of or denoting the sex that is distinguished biologically by the production of male gametes (sperm/spermatozoa) which can fertilize female gametes (ova).

The trans rights movement is a homophobic, misogynistic men's rights movement that preys on vulnerable children and adults.

 

[Metropolis]

Here we go again
View attachment 2644869

It shouldn’t be rare, it should be impossible for a biological male to represent the interests of women with whom he he has no lived or shared experience. And even in this ‘privileged’ position of ‘UN Women’s UK Champion’, he is centring trans people. The UN is a joke.

 

[Phil I Buster]

I wear men’s socks almost exclusively. This, coupled with only having sex with my husband when I am really in the mood…. Guys, I think I’m queer. Please respect my identity.

 

[LittleMissOnions]

I’m in my 50s and when I qualified as a lawyer I wasn’t allowed to wear trousers in court, this rule was only changed in 1995!

I wouldn’t know when an emergency meant I would have a hearing listed so unless I kept a spare skirt in my office, it meant I had to wear skirts every day.

It just riles me to think how hard we had to fight to get basic rights as women. Now as I go to my gynae appointments I’m having to google what AFAB means in my letter cos they can’t possibly write the reason for endometrial cancer is because I’m a woman.

 

[Dinate]

I really hope that J.K. Rowling, Ricky Gervais et al are keeping their powder dry until after the sentencing in the Brianna Ghey case with regards to India Willoughby's shocking post. They can't let India get away with such a clearly defamatory tweet.

Even ignoring the specific defamatory accusation, India is supposed to be some sort of journalist/broadcaster and yet clearly hasn't understood/followed the case. Whilst Boy Y may well have been transphobic, Girl X was not. Brianna was one of, I believe, five potential victims, and was not even the first choice.

Brianna was not killed because she was transgender, and to try to use her murder to score points against GC people is appalling.

And interestingly, the likes of India Willoughby claim that they are the same as other women, and yet they only get worked up over the killings of trans women. When it comes down to it, even they know the truth that trans women are not women.

 

[DanaScully]

I cannot express how deeply offensive I find it when revolting sick in the head men like this fucker are referred to as women and she.

This is what using preferred pronouns leads to. If you decide to be polite and kind, at what point do you decide not to use them for a particular man? When he commits a crime or is accused of one? It’s a nonsense.

Pronouns are a trojan horse!

 

[maytoseptember]

To me, reading that statement about Brianna, it sounds like they were probably a camp, flamboyant gay teenage boy, but would rather have been seen and accepted as a girl than bullied for that. I could be way off the mark, it's tragic regardless.

My home town of Liverpool has the Liver Building lit up for "fearless" Brianna Ghey, which strikes me as virtue signalling as Brianna wasn't from Liverpool, and it is not routinely lit up when any other teenager from outside the city is murdered

I’ll take it one step further and say that Brianna was a camp, flamboyant, gay teenage boy on a self-destruct mission of anorexia, drugs, and sexualising himself in a very creepy way. He called himself “Bimbo Bri” on his Twitter account, for example. I watched some of his Tiktok videos and found his outfits quite disturbing. His face also had an uncanny valley look about it. He was pretty but the thick make up couldn’t hide the fact there was a painfully thin boy’s face under there.

The trans identity was just another outlet for his self-destructive behaviours.

Clearly his parents fell for the “Would you rather have a trans daughter than a dead son?” rhetoric hook, line and sinker. But he didn’t need to be affirmed. Instead of pouring money into hair extensions, lashes and make up, he needed mental health support. Support that, it’s depressing to say, doesn’t really exist within the NHS. I’m not sure it’s even available privately, since so many practitioners are captured.

I don’t really blame the parents. They would have been desperate to keep their child’s mental health on an even keel, and would have pinned all their hopes on transitioning.

 

[Django]

This photo was on Xwitter a couple of days ago, and the T shirts are available on websites. If men can walk through an airport wearing these it says something quite dreadful about the society we live in...

 

[DoraMaar]

 

[Avenged7Fold]

I hope JK sues Himdia to Xmas and back

 

[klarakluckbag]

Slightly off topic but there is an article on the BBC today that is pure propaganda

Vogue model Ellie Goldstein: 'Doctors said I wouldn't walk or talk'

Model Ellie Goldstein, who has Down's syndrome, says people should never give up on their dreams.

www.bbc.co.uk

I do not believe for 1 second that anyone in 2001 would be told categorically that their DS child would not walk or talk ever. This is an article blatantly aimed at Women potentially carrying a Downs syndrome child and considering a termination.

Yes, I've just read this article. It's full of nice middle-class families, with high-achieving Downs children. One mother is quoted as saying that her other children will be "arguing over who is going to look after (sibling with Downs) when we're gone"...how lovely .
The sad reality of caring for severely disabled children, is ignored. There is a woman near me who has an adult Downs son, he must be around 40 years old now. She is well into her 70's, she is a single parent, her son's father met another woman and left years ago, he never saw his son again. She has not been able to work, her son is mostly non-verbal, has had numerous health issues, she can't leave him alone and so has to take him everywhere, even just to pop out and get a pint of milk. Her sister helps, but she's almost 80, a local charity provides her with a week of respite care throughout the year, but this poor woman has had a lifetime of basically caring for a giant toddler. She adores her son but worries constantly about what will happen to him if she dies first. I would never judge a woman for terminating a Downs pregnancy, it's not all about being a "Vogue model" or "drama student".