Gender Discussion #56

[Notworthy]

I am here and I didn't call anybody nasty or a terf. I said early on that I agree with many points. I disagree with others but I'm not about to be disrespectful towards someone because of their opinion. Thinking differently to me doesn't necessitate name calling. I simply said I found the thread hostile (this is true but doesn't mean every individual here was hostile towards me and I stand by what I said previously - so many of you are eloquent and witty and i'd like to underline that).

I think generally speaking GC thinking is v black and white - biological female or male, enough said, sort of thing (would you agree?). I just think there are grey areas here. If thinking AGPs are nasty and despicable makes me a terf then so be it! I think there is a huuuuge gap between a male predator sticking on a frock and wig and asking to be called Margaret and a genuine trans woman. And I OF COURSE think that women and children need to be protected but is preventing trans women (not male predators) from accessing female spaces the answer? The awful truth is that if a male predator wants to access a female space he will!

I know a lot of you think transness is mental illness but I disagree. Remember that homosexuality used to be classed as a mental illness (!!). I'm not saying I'm progressive or woke for respecting someone's pronouns. Transgender science is in its infancy and there is a lot to be learned and discovered about it.

Regarding whether I have anyone close to me who is trans, I have a trans friend (female to male) and I dated a trans woman (male to female) many years ago.

I don't think it's fair to be named a handmaiden for thinking there are many shades and layers to transgenderism. Surely you can be both a feminist and supporter of trans rights?

Sorry to anyone whose questions I haven't answered. I opened a can of worms by commenting again because it's hard to say 'I won't contribute again' and then feel ignorant for ignoring people.

Re the thread title, I think in addition to a name change being beneficial to non-GC people not getting lost here, renaming it Gender critical discussion would also benefit GC women who may not have otherwise found this place where like-minded people can share their views.

A final thought is why does there have to be a divide between someone like me who very much wants to dismantle the patriarchy and is a huge advocate for woman's rights yet also supports trans women and the people on this thread? Is it really a 'believe this or we don't want you here' situation?!

Well yes it really is black and white. I am not a Woman because of how I feel, think or even look, I am a Woman because every cell in my body is missing the y chromosome required to be Male. I am designed to produce large, pretty immobile gametes, a Man is designed to produce small, mobile gametes.
I know as much about what it feels like to be Male as I know what it feels like to be Elle, ie nothing.
Transgenderism is absolutely a mental illness.
If you genuinely believe transgenderism is acceptable then you must find it acceptable to identify out of race or identify as disabled when able-bodied.

 

[Miggsy]

I am here and I didn't call anybody nasty or a terf. I said early on that I agree with many points. I disagree with others but I'm not about to be disrespectful towards someone because of their opinion. Thinking differently to me doesn't necessitate name calling. I simply said I found the thread hostile (this is true but doesn't mean every individual here was hostile towards me and I stand by what I said previously - so many of you are eloquent and witty and i'd like to underline that).

I think generally speaking GC thinking is v black and white - biological female or male, enough said, sort of thing (would you agree?). I just think there are grey areas here. If thinking AGPs are nasty and despicable makes me a terf then so be it! I think there is a huuuuge gap between a male predator sticking on a frock and wig and asking to be called Margaret and a genuine trans woman. And I OF COURSE think that women and children need to be protected but is preventing trans women (not male predators) from accessing female spaces the answer? The awful truth is that if a male predator wants to access a female space he will!

I know a lot of you think transness is mental illness but I disagree. Remember that homosexuality used to be classed as a mental illness (!!). I'm not saying I'm progressive or woke for respecting someone's pronouns. Transgender science is in its infancy and there is a lot to be learned and discovered about it.

Regarding whether I have anyone close to me who is trans, I have a trans friend (female to male) and I dated a trans woman (male to female) many years ago.

I don't think it's fair to be named a handmaiden for thinking there are many shades and layers to transgenderism. Surely you can be both a feminist and supporter of trans rights?

Sorry to anyone whose questions I haven't answered. I opened a can of worms by commenting again because it's hard to say 'I won't contribute again' and then feel ignorant for ignoring people.

Re the thread title, I think in addition to a name change being beneficial to non-GC people not getting lost here, renaming it Gender critical discussion would also benefit GC women who may not have otherwise found this place where like-minded people can share their views.

A final thought is why does there have to be a divide between someone like me who very much wants to dismantle the patriarchy and is a huge advocate for woman's rights yet also supports trans women and the people on this thread? Is it really a 'believe this or we don't want you here' situation?!

Yes - whether someone is a man or a woman is about biology. There are 2 sexes and everyone is one or the other. Therefore no one can possibly be “non binary”.

I do think gender dysphoria is a mental illness yes. I don’t know why that’s offensive unless you think there’s anything wrong with being mentally ill? I certainly don’t think it’s “normal” for want of a better word to somehow think your sex or gender is different from your sexed body. Either way, being trans is a state of mind and doesn’t actually change someone’s sex, as this is not possible:

I’m also all ears as to how the “genuine trans women” can be differentiated from predators and AGPs? Answer: they can’t.

I don’t see how anyone can describe themselves as a feminist when they seek to centre men who say they are women above actual women but there you go.

 

[Ekathrina]

I do think it’s very rare for men to pass as women, in the flesh anyway - less so for women who wish to pass as men. Women can naturally differentiate better than men because it’s a survival skill for us to be able to do so.
I used to be in favour of some kind of third space facilities, but it’s now apparent that trans women will never accept that so now I think that they should just go in the facilities that match their sex, like they did before. A man doesn’t suddenly become more vulnerable overnight because he’s changed his name and is wearing a dress.

 

[jolly_parsley]

I’m sorry if I have misunderstood but are you saying that older women and black women look more manly than other women? And that other women might think that they are men?

I for one am constantly mistaking my grandma for a man and asking her why she’s going to the women’s toilets when we’re out shopping as soon as my mum becomes a pensioner the same thing will happen with her doesn’t this happen to anyone else???

 

[Tofino]

Apologies, I wasn't trying to suggest you would exclude people based on their age or ethnicity, just that those can be factors in how gender is perceived. But yes, it is their appearance you are judging because you wouldn't question someone who appeared to you to be female. Should people have to present their birth certificate? Because if they have a GRC their birth certificate will state their gender not their sex at birth.

It is a difficult issue and there is no clear answer to how women can be protected without also impacting the rights of other women. In theory I should be allowed in women's spaces because I don't have a pen but I know my appearance is male and I know that I no longer experience misogyny so women's spaces are not relevant to me.

It's rubbish that when people implement gender neutral changing rooms and bathrooms it usually comes at the cost of women only facilities because having female, gender neutral and male spaces seems the simplest route but I totally get why people object to gender neutral spaces when they reduce or replace women's facilities. It's lazy cost cutting.

It’s not a difficult issue though. The vast majority of people do not look like, or ever will look like, the opposite sex. We know safeguarding measures will never be 100%. That doesn’t mean we have to over complicate with paperwork to get 100% compliance or completely eradicate to cater for a minority with hurt feelings.

Everyone knows what sex they are and the majority of people respect and use the single sex facilities for their biological sex. If there is a misunderstanding in the moment then that doesn’t change what rights someone has. If you are female you have the right to use female toilets. Even if you look like a bloke.

 

[petitspois]

I'm a trans man. I know my biological sex is immutable but to all intents and purposes my gender is male. I have friends of 15+ years and colleagues I've worked with daily for a decade who are unaware of my biology. I wasn't born in the wrong body but aspects of my body caused me intense distress because they meant I was not perceived as I knew myself to be. If I tried to use women's spaces I would be rightly kicked out.

The trouble is that only the trans people who don't pass are visible, and when you're unable to transition until later in life as a trans woman there are changes which make that much more difficult which perpetuates the stereotype of the trucker who thinks a wig and fishnets make them a woman. I have a lot of internalised guilt about not being "out" as trans as do a lot of us who pass, because we contribute to that problem. But I don't identify as a trans person, I identify and am seen by society as a man.

I really wish there was less stuff about trans issues in the media etc because we just want to live our lives and the agenda from both sides to make us a talking point to score political points is bleeping exhausting.

If you use male toilets then, quite frankly, the risk is on you as biological men are generally stronger and more prone to violence. You can’t then expect women to accept men presenting as women into their spaces just as you wouldn’t expect the hens to welcome the fox into the hen house.

 

[Tofino]

I for one am constantly mistaking my grandma for a man and asking her why she’s going to the women’s toilets when we’re out shopping as soon as my mum becomes a pensioner the same thing will happen with her doesn’t this happen to anyone else???

Is it the short hair cut women from middle age are expected to have? Short hair = man.

 

[gigilouxx]

Being a black woman isn’t bleeping comparable to being a man in a dress what the duck, we’re WOMEN, it’s actually hurtful at this point

 

[Notworthy]

Is it the short hair cut women from middle age are expected to have? Short hair = man.

Plus the disappearing hips giving that matronly aka manly shape

 

[Mugglewump]

I do think it’s very rare for men to pass as women, in the flesh anyway - less so for women who wish to pass as men. Women can naturally differentiate better than men because it’s a survival skill for us to be able to do so.
I used to be in favour of some kind of third space facilities, but it’s now apparent that trans women will never accept that so now I think that they should just go in the facilities that match their sex, like they did before. A man doesn’t suddenly become more vulnerable overnight because he’s changed his name and is wearing a dress.

I gave up on suggesting third spaces as apparently that's transphobic.
What it really means is is that the AGPs want to be be in our spaces
---

If you use male toilets then, quite frankly, the risk is on you as biological men are generally stronger and more prone to violence. You can’t then expect women to accept men presenting as women into their spaces just as you wouldn’t expect the hens to welcome the fox into the hen house.

Agreed, but whilst the safety aspect doesn't exist, I think that men also deserve privacy and dignity in their spaces.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Being a black woman isn’t bleeping comparable to being a man in a dress what the duck, we’re WOMEN, it’s actually hurtful at this point

It was a ridiculous and outright racist comment by that poster.

 

[BlairWaldorf86]

To be honest it reads as though Elle and ahkrin are regurgitating all the usual TRA claims you usually see online.
- oh em geeee GC people want genital checks in bathrooms!
- Black women are women so trans women are too!
- trans people do pass and they’re already in your spaces!
- genuine trans people exist not like those nasty fraudsters (always with a “frock and wig”)

YAWN.

 

[Mugglewump]

It was a ridiculous and outright racist comment by that poster.

They are convinced they are the most marginalised.
It's massively offensive.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

They are convinced they are the most marginalised.
It's massively offensive.

It really did strike me as someone so caught up in their own victimhood that they can't see the wood for the trees. Dear God like.

 

[SkippyDoo]

The trouble is, it's not as vanishingly rare as you imagine for transpeople to pass. And if you're excluding people on their appearance then you risk discriminating against other demographics of women, particularly older women and Black women, who are already marginalised. Who gets to say who's feminine enough to be allowed in?

You are completely out of line to invoke Black women in this post. Absolutely outrageous.

This is the kind of thing I NEVER see from the GC side, it’s only activists for a certain cause and “be kind” types who show themselves in this way.

Bang out of order. The only person here who has raised the idea there might be a question over Black women’s womanhood is YOU, in an effort to justify men claiming they’re women.

And WE are the ones who need to educate ourselves. Unbelievable.

 

[Tofino]

Agreed, but whilst the safety aspect doesn't exist, I think that men also deserve privacy and dignity in their spaces.

yes you are right. I was thinking how would I feel if I found out my friend or colleague (more so friend) of 15+ years let me believe they were not the sex they actually are. In particular if I was made to believe they were female but actually male I would be absolutely bleeping furious. I’d be less concerned the other way round as I would not feel the same physical/sexual threat but I would still feel angry, hurt, deceived. Men may not feel the same threat but they might still feel similar about their privacy, dignity and betrayal.

Just because you might pass as the opposite sex in real life doesn’t make it right to disrespect and lie to other people and enter the spaces of the opposite sex just because you can get away with it.

 

[SkippyDoo]

They are convinced they are the most marginalised.
It's massively offensive.

It’s quite incredible for a poster to put a racist line of thought out there that absolutely no-one else has expressed, and then tell others that that is what THEY’RE encouraging by not agreeing men can be women.

You wonder how far down a rabbithole and beyond common decency a person can get and how much brainwashing goes on. It absolutely reeks of getting your education from the internet and never having to talk to people outside of snappy little soundbites from Twitter.

Note to the poster: a racist mind came up with the argument that you’re using.

Perhaps the World Wide Web was a mistake after all…

 

[gigilouxx]

I can’t believe that we’re still using this “black women are masculine” bleeping crap yet we’ll argue that an intact male is a female. I’m so sick of it all.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

Hooo, boy. I had to go back to find the racist comment as I wasn't bothering to read the rest of those posts.
Nothing like showing your a to us, eh? Funny what slips out when you think you're talking to a group of only white women of a certain age.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Hooo, boy. I had to go back to find the racist comment as I wasn't bothering to read the rest of those posts.
Nothing like showing your a to us, eh? Funny what slips out when you think you're talking to a group of only white women of a certain age.

Or when you think you have the moral high ground.