Gender Discussion #54

[maytoseptember]

Maddening. Female journalists who do research might have different opinions to your own, the horror!

For any lurkers, Barnes was previously a BBC Newsnight producer, and recently published a book on the the Tavistock Clinic: https://www.waterstones.com/book/time-to-think/hannah-barnes/9781800751118

Lewis is also a Journalist, and recently created a podcast series with the BBC on 'gurus': https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001g9sq

Helen also writes at the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/helen-lewis/

Amusing though that a skeptic society won't allow skepticism around certain topics!

Helen Lewis is a slippery character IMO. She gives every impression of being gender critical, has spoken and written about various gendery topics over the years, but when pressed with say TWAW. I always think… why are you here then? It’s a cowardly move, because she’s clearly an intelligent woman and knows the score… she just doesn’t have the courage to speak the truth.

The hilarious thing is, as much as she says TWAW she gets treated just as badly as the unashamed TERFs do, so you have to ask yourself why she bothers capitulating to the TRA side

 

[Avenged7Fold]

@Elle
I don’t consider myself a TERF, more GC, but I’m not offended if someone calls me that. It’s just a word and usually the last resort of someone who doesn’t have the ability to debate sensibly.
I wouldn’t say I’m a radical feminist. I like men, some of my best friends have been men.
As long as they stay out of women’s spaces, sport, awards and jobs it’s fine.

 

[Scotch Mist]

Ah that's so sad. I'm sorry you experienced that.

I genuinely appreciate anyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts. I'm actively enjoying learning of the different options and facts.

I didn't expect to agree with so much of what's been said. Granted there are still things I disagree with and things I'm neutral on but a key takeaway is that I don't need to be immediately wary of gender critical people and I feel like I'd get along well with a lot of you.

I know it's just words and I can't prove I'm sincere but I promise you I'm just a girl who's trying her best and I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The reason why TERF is rather controversial is because it's often used as an insult. If you look at this website you'll see why.

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

terfisaslur.com

 

[Elle]

So weird to come here and seem receptive to learn and demand people's time and knowledge to then be rude.

Can appreciate it was a quick turnaround from me coming in quite hostile to then asking lots of questions.

I realised the friend I mentioned before is actually the only gender critical person I've met 'in the wild' and as I said before we steer clear of the topic of gender. So it's been nice to have questions answered and people be funny and witty along the way.

Will try to stop derailing the thread and actually use the Wiki (it's just nice to have answers given in a conversational way).

Said friend has a wicked sense of humour and lots of you seem to too. At the end of the day we're all learning and growing (hopefully!) and I try to not take myself too seriously along the way.

It might surprise some of you to know that I actually think men are trash (not very woke of me). I say it sort of tongue in cheek as I have a boyfriend and select male friends but honestly duck the patriarchy.

 

[Regina Fellangi]

The bloke who is upset because he can't play womens football

Some weapons grade filters being deployed I see

 

[skronkywildcat]

Yeah I think this person is on a disingenuous wind up mission. I will not be engaging.

Mod edit: Using this post as a marker to move on please, as the thread was getting derailed.

 

[Kittypops]

I object to the term of TERF
It's the R I don't agree with
It's not Radical
I just don't support men being given Women’s Rights
I stand for women

 

[HoGi]

I object to the term of TERF
It's the R I don't agree with
It's not Radical
I just don't support men being given Women’s Rights
I stand for women

I also object because I do not exclude transmen from my Feminism. At the end of the day they are still women.

 

[Milliemoo99]

But I've seen acknowledged here by some the difference between a 'genuine' trans woman and a man with ill intentions posing as a woman (for weird sexual gratification or to be a predator). So it seems a difficulty is deciding who is sincere and who is masquerading and giving a bad name to the trans community.

But why should we as women be having to decide who is sincere and who is masquerading? Why do we have to be the ones muting our inner concerns and safeguarding worries?
why is it women who are being asked to be so nice and understanding, as our spaces are compromised?

Years ago, before covid.....I belonged to a gym that had a transwoman as a member, most women were perfectly welcoming and chatty to him in the swimming pool itself, but, it was a bit awkward in the large open changing room! And a bit of a worry when you were showering, and heard a loud male voice chatting just outside the cubicle.
Some older ladies tried to raise the changing in the open changing room as an issue, but it was virtually ignored. And this I thought was unfair! ( I hate changing now in open changing rooms, so would choose to half dress in the showers, then finish dressing in my underwear!, as did many other ladies!)

 

[SkippyDoo]

The bloke who is upset because he can't play womens football

It’s just about wanting basic dignity and respect.

Oh, and to play football against teenage girls. And then to call yourself a “schoolgirl” while you engage in prostitution. Honestly, you TERFs!

Just be kinder to a man who wants to enjoy his fetish would you? Play along!!

 

[Milliemoo99]

Oh for goodness sake...this guidance appears to be as clear as mud, how is this guidance meant to help schools and teachers sort out this chaos?
Guidance to allow transgender children to socially transition in English schools | Transgender | The Guardian
Guidance to allow transgender children to socially transition in English schools
Government likely to let children change names, pronouns or uniforms in guidance to be issued this year, reports say

R

Transgender children in England will be able to socially transition at school, subject to conditions to be detailed in guidance issued to schools later this year.
The guidance is said to take “a presumption against” children transitioning to a different gender at school but is likely to allow them to change their preferred names, pronouns or uniforms. It marks a climbdown from reports that some ministers were seeking to ban social transitioning within schools entirely.

Ministers ruled out a ban on social transitioning after concluding it would require primary legislation to avoid conflicts with existing equality and discrimination law, and could prove to be unworkable.

 

[judgejohndeed]

My latest take in case anyone is wondering - I object to 'TERF' because if your feminism isn't 'TERFy' then it's not feminism. At best it's egalitarianism. Liberal feminism is not feminism IMO. TERFism is just feminism (and can still include trans men, because we all know that by 'exclusionary' they are talking about trans women.

 

[petitspois]

I’m not an academic feminist but isn’t the term radical just a push back on the liberal feminists that have basically hung us out to dry by accepting anything that calls itself a woman indeed is a woman and the rest of us are hateful bigots?
Liberal feminists = handmaidens
Radical feminists = just standing up for biological women’s rights

 

[judgejohndeed]

Without getting into all the ins and outs of the philosophy - 'radical' feminism doesn't actually refer to 'extreme' feminism in a layman sense of the word, it's about tackling the 'root' of female oppression (although of course with the rise of liberal feminism you could reasonably argue that in this day and age, tackling that root IS a radical idea in the 'extreme' sense). In all honesty, quite a lot of women who TRAs call 'TERFs' are not radical feminists at all. Many of them either don't care about other feminist causes at all and are primarily interested in gender only, or in some cases, they actively hold other views that are either anti-female or damaging to women. So anyone who is only really concerned with gender I would call gender critical, e.g. someone who doesn't think trans women are women but does agree with, say, commercial surrogacy, porn, or 'sex work' (which might be surprising but is weirdly quite common...) That's not to denigrate gender critical people - just that there is a difference in being gender critical and being a (radical) feminist. It is possible to be GC without being a feminist but, in my opinion at least, not possible to be a feminist without being GC.

 

[petitspois]

Excuse the strangled terminology but I’m becoming more feminist as the months roll on but I’m well aware it’s a bit of a humourless debate. Whilst I’m 100% behind the principles I’m wary of looking like that episode of Friends where Chandler ended up in the front seat of the one woman show. ‘Chapter 1: my first period’.

 

[Vanelope]

Oh god yeah - radical feminism does get more and more humourless as you point out that most of the jokes people enjoy are rooted in misogyny…

I’ve definitely got more feminist as I’ve aged and now have daughters. The late 90s early 00s were messed up for teenagers coming of age then.

 

[PryingPenny]

So weird to come here and seem receptive to learn and demand people's time and knowledge to then be rude.

If you are genuinely here to be interested then do stick around, you can prove peoples worries wrong very quickly.

I think people are cynical because others have come in here to disrupt the thread and waste people's time, but I'm sure I asked similar questions when I first came into this thread

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

I think this is the one https://tattle.life/posts/17438305/

 

[IndominusRex]

Yes sadly there’s a pattern of people coming in, asking questions then turning round and saying “you’re all evil bigots, go die in a fire!”

 

[Elle]

Thinking about Venelope's post about the 90s and 00s being awful for coming of age, I was a teenager in the 00s and a prevailing memory of mine is of the god awful 'Special K diet'. Being a teenager when there was so much emphasis on being 'thin' and thin meaning beautiful was just awful. Imagine being told that you should replace breakfast and lunch with bowls of cereal and then you will finally be beautiful and accepted. Madness.

My daughter is only three and I honestly DREAD her teenage years and whatever inevitable pressure there will be to be and look a certain way. Just wanna wrap her up in bubble wrap (and never have Special K in the house!).