Gender Discussion #54

[maytoseptember]

On a fundamental level it's weird to me that we have these strict binaries - male or female. I've often wondered, and will probably get laughed at for this, why when we're born we can't be non-binary (sorry to use this label again but for lack of a better word) and then decide to be who we want to be without fear of judgement.

How about we let kids be gender non-conforming without telling them it makes them non-binary or transgender?

Surely THAT is more progressive than the current thinking?

You seem to be painting non-binary as this modern, free-thinking, unrestricted way to live. In my opinion it’s worse and more regressive than simply accepting a feminine boy and a masculine girl (or old school tomboy) for who they are.

 

[Ruby’s mum]

Hi people. Me again!

I've been reading through the most liked posts here to get more of a sense of people's thoughts and feelings.

I hope you don't mind but I have a few questions (at the risk of sounding naive).

What is a TIM?

Also, is the term TERF offensive to people who have gender critical beliefs? Or does it depend on the individual?

OK, finally, would anyone here describe themselves as transphobic? Or is that a big leap to make from being gender critical.

Thanks to anyone who answers!

TiM is a trans identifying male, ie a man playing at being a woman.
Call me a TERF all you like, I’m not remotely offended. In fact, it’s one of my preferred pronouns.
I’m not transphobic. A phobia is a fear of something, I’m not frightened of TiMs just sickened with the way they are taking every hard fought thing away from women and centring themselves.

 

[Elle]

How about we let kids be gender non-conforming without telling them it makes them non-binary or transgender?

Surely THAT is more progressive than the current thinking?

You seem to be painting non-binary as this modern, free-thinking, unrestricted way to live. In my opinion it’s worse and more regressive than simply accepting a feminine boy and a masculine girl (or old school tomboy) for who they are.

Totally agree with that. I really struggle to believe that a CHILD has the ability to determine their gender. They should have the freedom to play and explore and be themselves without gender even coming into it.

I guess I do see the concept of 'non-binary' as progressive. Thanks for sharing that thought it's interesting to me.
---

TiM is a trans identifying male, ie a man playing at being a woman.
Call me a TERF all you like, I’m not remotely offended. In fact, it’s one of my preferred pronouns.
I’m not transphobic. A phobia is a fear of something, I’m not frightened of TiMs just sickened with the way they are taking every hard fought thing away from women and centring themselves.

Thanks for that. Got you. And what of trans men (female to male)?

 

[SkippyDoo]

On a fundamental level it's weird to me that we have these strict binaries - male or female. I've often wondered, and will probably get laughed at for this, why when we're born we can't be non-binary (sorry to use this label again but for lack of a better word) and then decide to be who we want to be without fear of judgement. Maybe I'm being a bit silly. Don't get me wrong I have a child and she is the sex that she is biologically. But if she came to me when old enough to make an informed decision and told me she was something else I'd fully support her.

I’m not really sure what you mean by “us” having these strict binaries. Nature decided for us. We don’t start randomly deciding what sex babies are when they are born and imposing hard lines that weren’t already there. We just observe sex and record it. Humans may have overlaid gender on biological sex, but biological sex is identifiable and it is relevant.

We don’t need to insist everyone is “non-binary” when they’re born and we don’t need to tie ourselves up in knots recognising anyone’s “non-binary” identity as an adult, we simply can accept that kids will be kids and find themselves as they grow up, and adult male or female people can dress, act, present, love, live however they want. There is no need to create endless categories of recognition for gender because it doesn’t really matter any more than what type of music any of us likes. You do you. But sometimes biological sex is very important and that must be noted. We all know where babies come from, for example, and Mother Nature doesn’t care about your gender identity for those purposes. Prostate cancer doesn’t care either. And so on.

That’s not the same as saying biological sex determines every single thing we do — in fact those who challenge gender firmly challenge that. It’s IMO a toxic idea that there are behaviours or mindsets that mean a person isn’t “really” the sex that they actually are. I suggest society needs to reframe its thinking on this, we have gone down the wrong track.

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

Hi people. Me again!

I've been reading through the most liked posts here to get more of a sense of people's thoughts and feelings.

I hope you don't mind but I have a few questions (at the risk of sounding naive).

What is a TIM?

Also, is the term TERF offensive to people who have gender critical beliefs? Or does it depend on the individual?

OK, finally, would anyone here describe themselves as transphobic? Or is that a big leap to make from being gender critical.

Thanks to anyone who answers!

I'm not remotely offended by being called a TERF. I guess some people might be. I used to be terrified of being called one but that's the whole idea isn't it? Make women scared to speak up by calling them a name that any right thinking person would be appalled to be associated with.

I'm not transphobic, I just don't think men should be in women's spaces. I don't think women who claim to be men should be in men's spaces either but that's not my fight to fight - men can deal with that one. And I think telling kids (or adults for that matter)who don't conform to ridiculous stereotypes that they can become the opposite sex is wrong.

Edited to remove the word "don't" which changed the meaning of what I wrote

 

[IndominusRex]

Also, is the term TERF offensive to people who have gender critical beliefs? Or does it depend on the individual?

OK, finally, would anyone here describe themselves as transphobic? Or is that a big leap to make from being gender critical.

The problem with TERF is that its most common usage is as part of a threat. Type it into Twitter and you’ll come up with thousands of grape and death threats directed at gender critical women.

Transphobia is a prejudice directed at trans people - for example use of the term ‘tr*nny’ or threats directed at an individual because of their gender non conforming appearance.

99.9% of gender critical women do not to anythjng that meets the definition of transphobia above. Sadly all gender critical women are now labelled as ‘transphobic’ because people see any criticism or refusal to kowtow as a threat.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Hi people. Me again!

I've been reading through the most liked posts here to get more of a sense of people's thoughts and feelings.

I hope you don't mind but I have a few questions (at the risk of sounding naive).

What is a TIM?

Also, is the term TERF offensive to people who have gender critical beliefs? Or does it depend on the individual?

OK, finally, would anyone here describe themselves as transphobic? Or is that a big leap to make from being gender critical.

Thanks to anyone who answers!

Just to say plenty of people are proud TERF's here and have taken a word that was designed to frighten and shut down women and decided to wear it proudly.

You haven't mentioned it, yet, but just to say that CIS is offensive to a lot of women. It was designed to other us from our own biological sex and is almost always used in a derogatory way. I am not a cis female, I am simply female!

 

[Elle]

Thanks for your insights. Death threats? That's crazy.

There seems a consensus here that nobody would shout slurs or abuse at a trans person. But would perhaps be uncomfortable to be around a trans woman?

Would you be willing to help a trans person who needed it?

Sorry for all the questions. Realise I'm an 'interloper' here but I like to learn and am curious.
---

You haven't mentioned it, yet, but just to say that CIS is offensive to a lot of women. It was designed to other us from our own biological sex and is almost always used in a derogatory way. I am not a cis female, I am simply female!

Thanks for saying. I did read that already in the posts but must admit I wasn't aware of it before. While I personally wouldn't mind being called a cis female I can absolutely understand that some women would.

 

[usefullyuseless]

I don't mind being called a TERF.

I was very much 'live and let live' before I 'peaked'. To some degree I don't care if a man wears a dress and decides his name is now Mary, for example but I don't want him in the changing rooms with me or the public toilets. I don't want him in the women's only hospital ward with me or, god forbid I needed it, the women's only counselling session. I don't want my daughter to have to compete against men who have a biological advantage but decide they're now women because they came up short against other men. I don't want my daughter to lose out on women only scholarships, training programmes etc because someone decides to give it to a man to be seen as 'inclusive'. I'm tired of seeing lists of extraordinary women and there being at least one man on it.

I was a tomboy as a child. I hated what my body went through during puberty, hated the attention I got from men and boys. My periods crippled me with pain and the flow was so heavy I had to change a huge pad every hour. If someone had said to me 'you can become a boy and all of this will go away' I would have grabbed it with both hands! I'm glad I didn't grow up in today's society as who knows how things could have turned out if my parents had bought into gender ideology.

 

[petitspois]

Thanks for your insights. Death threats? That's crazy.

There seems a consensus here that nobody would shout slurs or abuse at a trans person. But would perhaps be uncomfortable to be around a trans woman?

Would you be willing to help a trans person who needed it?

Sorry for all the questions. Realise I'm an 'interloper' here but I like to learn and am curious.
---


Thanks for saying. I did read that already in the posts but must admit I wasn't aware of it before. While I personally wouldn't mind being called a cis female I can absolutely understand that some women would.

I would never shout abuse at anyone.

I would help anyone if they fell in the street or something like that but if you mean, would I help a trans person by contributing to their crowdfunder for a mastectomy for example then, hell no.

I feel uncomfortable near all people who are trans as I feel they are either a teen or young girl with mental health issues that need support, a strange man dressed up as a woman, or an autogynephile. I'm sure you can Google the terms or generalisations I've made and you will see that trans people do indeed generally fall under a few umbrellas.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Thanks for your insights. Death threats? That's crazy.

There seems a consensus here that nobody would shout slurs or abuse at a trans person. But would perhaps be uncomfortable to be around a trans woman?

Would you be willing to help a trans person who needed it?

Sorry for all the questions. Realise I'm an 'interloper' here but I like to learn and am curious.

I wouldn't be uncomfortable around most trans women I have met, I actually wouldn't bat an eye lid about them in the women's toilets (I have never seen them use them though) and have had no issues with them in changing rooms.

But, there is your more normal trans person who I have never had issues with and then there is this other type of trans person who seems to be on the rise that does make me uncomfortable. They are typically great hulking men who wear big floaty old fashioned dresses, have unkempt hair, facial hair, makeup and big dangly earrings and seems to hang out together! They aren't really making any effort to come across female or to go about their day to day lives unnoticed and seem to want to make people (namely women) uncomfortable. I have encountered a few of them this year alone and they make me feel very unsafe on the street and the thoughts of encountering them in women's bathrooms (which I think they would go out of their way to use) would worry me.

To me they are totally different to the traditional trans person but we are not allowed to see or voice the very obvious difference.

 

[Elle]

I have a wonderful friend who is a 'TERF'...not sure if she'd be OK with being described as such or not.

She is a much older lady and a brilliant person and, interestingly, the topic of gender didn't come up until quite far into our friendship.

It came up because she said her and her daughter only disagree on one topic...this one. And it turns out her daughter and I have similar views on it. She firmly believes that trans women shouldn't be in women-only spaces, along with some of the other points that some of you have made relating to women's rights and taking back what women have fought hard for.

I was surprised by her views because she is Liberal and wise and open minded and I didn't expect her to have these beliefs. But I don't know what she's been through in her life and I guess I am naive to think that anyone who thinks differently to me on this is closed minded and judgemental.

She and I don't broach the topic of gender as we know it will only leave one or both of us upset. I'm hearing some interesting insights from you all so thank you. While I don't think my views will dramatically change I do still think there is a lot for me to learn and to always remember to remain open minded and respectful when hearing someone else's views and experiences.

 

[IndominusRex]

@Elle I think most people would help anyone in need, if they were hungry or injured for example. But I wouldn’t ‘help’ a transwoman to get a place on a women’s football team or something.

Similarly, passing a transwoman in the street or in the supermarket wouldn’t make me uncomfortable but having them in a female gym changing room or hospital ward would.

Have you heard of autogynephilia?

 

[Elle]

BRB just googling autogynephilia

OK I'm back with you. That's disturbing.

Gah it's all very complex isn't it.

Can't anyone who is evil and has bad intentions just duck off and then everything will be fine?!

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

I'm not remotely offended by being called a TERF. I guess some people might be. I used to be terrified of being called one but that's the whole idea isn't it? Make women scared to speak up by calling them a name that any right thinking person would be appalled to be associated with.

I'm not transphobic, I just don't think men should be in women's spaces. I don't think women who claim to be men should be in men's spaces either but that's not my fight to fight - men can deal with that one. And I think telling kids (or adults for that matter)who don't conform to ridiculous stereotypes that they can become the opposite sex is wrong.

Edited to remove the word "don't" which changed the meaning of what I wrote

Much like historical use of the word witch, I’ve never realised that before. So many penny-drops on this thread!
Elle, I wasn’t laughing at you per se with the meme, it was just the audacity of your bursting onto this thread demanding they/thems (now you know the tone I hope you get my humour). Anyway stick around and you’ll find we’re reasonable, normal and not demanding anybody’s head on a stick. We’re more threatened than the ones who claim to be harassed “punch a terf” merch is selling like hotcakes on Etsy etc.

 

[maytoseptember]

My take on whether TERF is offensive is kind of simple: it depends on the intent.

When you see people spitting “TERF!” at events concerned with women’s rights, or see things like “duck TERFs!”, “Die mad TERFs!” or “Punch a TERF!” then it’s pretty clear that it’s being used as a synonym for witch or Nazi.

Equally, I’ll call myself a TERF quite happily.

Am I transphobic? Reality is transphobic. Science is transphobic. Facts are transphobic.

 

[exhausted_mother]

Other idea

Thanks for your insights. Death threats? That's crazy.

There seems a consensus here that nobody would shout slurs or abuse at a trans person. But would perhaps be uncomfortable to be around a trans woman?

Would you be willing to help a trans person who needed it?

Sorry for all the questions. Realise I'm an 'interloper' here but I like to learn and am curious.
---


Thanks for saying. I did read that already in the posts but must admit I wasn't aware of it before. While I personally wouldn't mind being called a cis female I can absolutely understand that some women would.

We’re not awful violent bigots. I would treat anyone I met with kindness. I’m a normal person not some monster because I don’t believe Jim popping a dress on makes him Janet and therefore able to access single sex spaces.

Would I ignore a TIM/TIF who was injured or being attacked? No because I’m not a fool.

 

[Elle]

Lynn, I get it! I enjoyed the meme, honestly.

Now that I've engaged with a few of you and heard your thoughts I can totally see why I put people's backs up coming in here guns ablaze trying to be a white Knight for Mae!

Especially when your discussions have got deep and meaningful and I'm interrupting without warning.

I keep getting notified that people are still laughing at my first messages and I'm like please know I'm a nice person .

 

[petitspois]

BRB just googling autogynephilia

OK I'm back with you. That's disturbing.

Gah it's all very complex isn't it.

Can't anyone who is evil and has bad intentions just duck off and then everything will be fine?!

That's the thing though, it's not. Men are men and women are women. Dress how you want (as long as you're not a perv) and keep out of women's spaces.

 

[IndominusRex]

Can't anyone who is evil and has bad intentions just duck off and then everything will be fine?!

You’ve got right to the crux of it here! How do we know who has bad intentions and who doesn’t? Especially if we accept Self ID.