But I've seen acknowledged here by some the difference between a 'genuine' trans woman and a man with ill intentions posing as a woman (for weird sexual gratification or to be a predator). So it seems a difficulty is deciding who is sincere and who is masquerading and giving a bad name to the trans community.
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I think most of us here probably are fairly liberal, generally. Most of us at some point were fairly 'live and let live' and then a moment or few moments/videos/experiences etc made us begin to question 'gender ideology', a lot of us are parents and I myself saw first hand my clearly a girl stepkid become 'nonbinary', 'gender fluid' etc etc and now insists she's a boy despite still often appearing very feminine etc, talks about getting a double mastectomy like it's nothing. Proclaims loudly self ID not being made law is killing people, believes trans people are experiencing an 'active genocide' despite no evidence to support this. She's legally still a child and yet had zero signs of anything as a young child...right up until a young teen was perfectly happy as a girl. Then I found out there are thousands of teenage girls doing the same thing. I found out the statistics of teens referred to gender clinics in the past few years is astronomical compared to a decade or two ago and now is skewed incredibly to more girls whereas it used to be far less but more boys than girls. I found out about the Tavistock and why they were being shut down, how teens are being prescribed cross sex hormones after one very short doctor's visit.
And I couldn't pretend anymore. Id tried to be supportive but I was horrified. I'm not old, I'm 31...but I can't pretend that I believe men can be women, and vice versa, I can't believe the social contagion theory isn't true when I've witnessed it in action.
My posting here doesn't come from a want to be any kind of bigot. It comes from a worried parent and as someone who has faced too much male violence in my life to turn a blind eye to men with fetishes wanting to share a bathroom with my 10 year old daughter. I'm scared for my stepkid but duck, I'm terrified for her.
BIB
Conflating gender critical (TERF) views with right-wing politics is a common tactic used by trans activists. I'm happy to be called a TERF. I am (and have always been) a left wing liberal. The issues surrounding trans - and it's transwomen - is that of safety, dignity and privacy for women and girls in their daily lives. Do you want a teenage girl to share a changing room with a middle-aged man, should Muslim women have to restrict their activities because a transwoman is using the women only gym/swimming pool. Should women who have suffered male violence have to endure fear in changing rooms and toilets because of some men. It only takes one man to make a female only space a unisex space and remove all safeguards.
I do feel that the whole trans movement has been co-opted by predators tbh. They use the trans shield to make it impossible for people (mostly women as this is who this bull negatively affects the most) to speak up and voice concern and I think a lot of these trans women seem to actually have a real viciral hatred for biological women.
I don't believe any trans woman should partake in women's sport, I can respect their pronouns if I feel they are genuine but at the end of the day they are still biologically men and always will be. Thoughts can't change DNA at the end of the day!
But you can't have someone on the door of every venue checking for 'genuine-ness' so keep all men out. Why do men 'win'?
There is a wiki you can click on at the top of the page which provides lots of information.
Thanks for pointing out the Wiki. A quick read there has answered some of my questions.
Thanks for your patience rehashing points that I'm sure have been covered before.
Has there ever been a trans woman on this thread?
Thanks for your patience rehashing points that I'm sure have been covered before.
Has there ever been a trans woman on this thread?
that’s what I was going to say.
the only people who say it’s “complex” and “complicated” are those choosing to MAKE it complicated.
For those who live in biological reality, no, it’s not complex. At all.
Yes, there has
Think of it another way: no child is born into the wrong body. Not one. No one is born with a gender essence that sometimes goes awry.
Gender is just a set of expectations around the way males and females are supposed to behave and present themselves.
Kids should be allowed to behave and present themselves however they like without being burdened with concepts such as being transgender.
Most gender non conforming kids grow up to be gay. It’s actually homophobic to push them down the trans path, making them “straight” instead of same sex attracted.
And that's why sex segregated spaces are so important.
I'm in no way transphobic. One of my favourite artist/singers transitioned from a heavily tattooed vocalist in a hardcore band to a heavily tattooed transgender person who still sings in the same band. I followed the transition process online as I found it interesting to see how Keith would turn into Mina.
I still love the band and it hasn't changed my opinion of the person at all .
I still love the band and it hasn't changed my opinion of the person at all .
My two cents: first and foremost, phobia = fear. We're not scared, but we're not blind either. Transphobe is the regulation insult flung at *anybody* disagreeing with the party line. Be Kind seems to only ever apply to the trans identifying people, not to anyone else who dares to express a different opinion.
People can live, love, believe how they wish - however, they cannot expect the world at large to conform to what they perceive as reality. Respect goes both ways.
I am old enough to have witnessed how women were (and still are) treated like second class citizen, how being mates with gay people would mean being called names and potentially physically attacked (London in the 90s, not a century ago), how every. single. improvement. in women's lives had to be hard won time and time again. So, no, I will not stand politely aside to let a man live his fantasy and tell *me* how to be a woman, or appropriate women's spaces/sports whatever.
Couple of suggestions for you - Native Tongue, by S.H.Elgin, a book which explores a world where women are considered wards of the men, and Marcus Dib (The Offensive Tr*nny) on YouTube.
And lastly (I'll shut up now), CIS and TERF might not sound offensive to you, but they are to a lot of women. I think we should be afforded the same courtesy regarding name calling, no?
1. It is the question of the rights of women and girls / children to have single sex spaces for safety, dignity and fairness. When TiMs want to use women’s bathrooms, changing rooms, swimming sessions, awards categories and sports to either a) validate their fetish b) access women because they are predators or c) take places and prize money they would not get as a man, they are violating the hard won rights of women.
2. It is teaching a whole generation that a legal fiction is reality, you can change sex. You can’t. And you don’t have a real gender to change, you only have behaviour that is socially viewed in certain ways. Logically and biologically it is nonsense. The ones being harmed here are mentally ill young people being put on a pathway to sterilisation, loss of sexual function, rejection and given no actual help for their illness.
3. Misogynists, especially on the left, have a new way of attacking women and trying to silence them. They are using trans ideology to attach women, especially those who are older and don’t put up with their tit. See Owen Jones. Be kind! Is the new ‘be seen and not heard’. Left wing women who are enabling this are an enigma to me, they have no idea how much some of these men hate women. Look at videos of any of the ‘black pampers’ shouting at let women speak events and you can see pure hatred of women.
2. It is teaching a whole generation that a legal fiction is reality, you can change sex. You can’t. And you don’t have a real gender to change, you only have behaviour that is socially viewed in certain ways. Logically and biologically it is nonsense. The ones being harmed here are mentally ill young people being put on a pathway to sterilisation, loss of sexual function, rejection and given no actual help for their illness.
3. Misogynists, especially on the left, have a new way of attacking women and trying to silence them. They are using trans ideology to attach women, especially those who are older and don’t put up with their tit. See Owen Jones. Be kind! Is the new ‘be seen and not heard’. Left wing women who are enabling this are an enigma to me, they have no idea how much some of these men hate women. Look at videos of any of the ‘black pampers’ shouting at let women speak events and you can see pure hatred of women.
Can I just say I’m feeling slightly uneasy at a new poster dropping into this thread and having us enthusiastically educate them. I have been joining in, hoping that @Elle is completely genuine, but I’m very aware that people in the past have popped up with bad intentions, and I’ve felt like an idiot for being sucked in. I hope that doesn’t happen again.
I don't really like the word TERF because it suggested we are gatekeeping something that should be shared, actually it's more MERF, I'm a man exclusionary feminist, I don't think I'm particularly radical, I don't hate men, I am straight and happy to get someone else to put the bins out and catch spiders for me.
I would also be called a SWERF, I don't believe I need to champion the rights of women to sell their bodies, and I don't think it can be compared to men selling their labour to mining etc. The women who end up in sex work are more likely to be from abusive backgrounds, I don't think it's empowering or freeing but would want to support their right to be safe.
@Elle I think you've listened well to what others have said to you and that's helpful for you and for us. We won't all agree on every point in this group, but that's okay, I'm definitely not liberal on some issues but feel furious at the men taking over female spaces in the guise of being women. I do still believe removing the term transvestite from vocabulary has made it much more complicated because the same word is used for a men who gets off on wearing women's clothes, and someone who has gender dysmorphia. The latter often presents in childhood and actually resolves in the main during puberty. The book 'irreversible damage' was fundamental to me becoming gender critical and I recommend it as a fascinating and sobering read
I would also be called a SWERF, I don't believe I need to champion the rights of women to sell their bodies, and I don't think it can be compared to men selling their labour to mining etc. The women who end up in sex work are more likely to be from abusive backgrounds, I don't think it's empowering or freeing but would want to support their right to be safe.
@Elle I think you've listened well to what others have said to you and that's helpful for you and for us. We won't all agree on every point in this group, but that's okay, I'm definitely not liberal on some issues but feel furious at the men taking over female spaces in the guise of being women. I do still believe removing the term transvestite from vocabulary has made it much more complicated because the same word is used for a men who gets off on wearing women's clothes, and someone who has gender dysmorphia. The latter often presents in childhood and actually resolves in the main during puberty. The book 'irreversible damage' was fundamental to me becoming gender critical and I recommend it as a fascinating and sobering read
Maddening. Female journalists who do research might have different opinions to your own, the horror!
For any lurkers, Barnes was previously a BBC Newsnight producer, and recently published a book on the the Tavistock Clinic: https://www.waterstones.com/book/time-to-think/hannah-barnes/9781800751118
Lewis is also a Journalist, and recently created a podcast series with the BBC on 'gurus': https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001g9sq
Helen also writes at the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/helen-lewis/
Amusing though that a skeptic society won't allow skepticism around certain topics!
Ah that's so sad. I'm sorry you experienced that.
I genuinely appreciate anyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts. I'm actively enjoying learning of the different options and facts.
I didn't expect to agree with so much of what's been said. Granted there are still things I disagree with and things I'm neutral on but a key takeaway is that I don't need to be immediately wary of gender critical people and I feel like I'd get along well with a lot of you.
I know it's just words and I can't prove I'm sincere but I promise you I'm just a girl who's trying her best and I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
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