Gender Discussion #35

[SueDoyou]

How long until we get the next member of the 'be kind, it's so complicated, trans women are women' brigade. Bingo points for:

Ad bleeping nauseam.

I'm no brigade, or affiliated with any trans person or system. I'm simply another woman with an opinion that differs to yours and you don't get very far with your own beliefs when you conduct yourself like this. I like to think I came in here with respect and a willingness to listen and learn but you seem to be one of the same type of people you are saying you hate. Back up against the wall and unwilling to see any other opinion other than your own as anything other than militant and dangerous.

Thank you to everyone else btw! I really appreciated you coming back and saying you didn't find me difficult, I really just wanted to listen and reading through four of these threads (It took a while!) it did me a world of good to continue to grow my world view.

This is the thing, most trans people (who have always existed) are not the ones drawing attention to themselves Shouting at women and calling us witches at protests, they are just trying to get on with their lives. This minority of aggressive trans women are giving a bad name to the whole movement and putting women (and the young people they seem to be infouencing) at huge risk.

I would agree with this.

 

[nothanksbabes]

This is the thing, most trans people (who have always existed) are not the ones drawing attention to themselves Shouting at women and calling us witches at protests, they are just trying to get on with their lives. This minority of aggressive trans women are giving a bad name to the whole movement and putting women (and the young people they seem to be infouencing) at huge risk.

This is it. TRAs complicate this issue, for their own benefit.

Ultimately gender non-conforming people have always, and will always exist. What is considered "gender-conforming" is largely time and culture-bound.

Such people (which included me, for many years of my life) deserve the same rights and protections as everyone else. Discrimination against them is driven by misogyny (gnc man = feminine = failed man, gnc woman = masculine = unfuckable =failed women), which as a feminist I will spend my life railing against.

It is impossible to change sex. Change society, not the person.

I'm no brigade, or affiliated with any trans person or system. I'm simply another woman with an opinion that differs to yours and you don't get very far with your own beliefs when you conduct yourself like this. I like to think I came in here with respect and a willingness to listen and learn but you seem to be one of the same type of people you are saying you hate. Back up against the wall and unwilling to see any other opinion other than your own as anything other than militant and dangerous.

Thank you to everyone else btw! I really appreciated you coming back and saying you didn't find me difficult, I really just wanted to listen and reading through four of these threads (It took a while!) it did me a world of good to continue to grow my world view.



I would agree with this.

You haven't really engaged with a lot that's been said here though, just repeated "not all men" in one form or another and painted yourself as some sort of victim of us horrible women who just aren't open minded enough for you, when precisely the opposite is true.

 

[Nelly's mum]

I’m bleeping sick of other women pandering to these men over other women and girls’ rights. I don’t understand how they can go on about the vulnerability of trans identified men in male spaces (I disagree, but that’s not the point) but be so bloody wilfully obtuse and or ignorant to the worse outcomes for females.

Granted to a lot of women ending up in prison or a dv shelter might seem unlikely. But we all have older women relatives and will be old one day ourselves, do they want one of these perverts bathing their elderly mums, aunts, grandmothers. Do they want their young daughters sharing toilets with perverts when they start to go out in the world on their own. Like what the duck is wrong with them that they prioritise some mens feelings over our safety I’ve bleeping had it. bleeping traitors.

I see your point and I agree with you. I was in two minds if SueDoyou was genuine or a bit of a troll, but I can see that for many women the whole #Bekind and TWAW balls is really engrained.
Women are conditioned to be caring, compassionate, accommodating, and accepting - I think for many women it is really difficult to step back from this mindset and to think critically, certainly initially, and then voice their dissenting opinions to others.

I welcome all posters on this thread, it doesn't matter if they don't agree with the majority. After all, this is a gossip forum, we are (sadly) not developing legislation.

My focus is on women, I support all women, whether or not they agree with me. Male society, and men's issues with accepting other men is not my problem, and I don't see why women should be expected to accept TIM's into their safe spaces, affirm, and solve their problems.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Whether this user is a troll or not, I'd advise them to go and try exactly the same tactic in a group of men or online TRAs.

From us you get relatively patient debate, from them it would be grape and death threats. Funnily enough they don't give a duck about your #notallmen.

 

[petitspois]

A basic premise of safeguarding is that you take account of what could happen and do all you can to prevent it. Therefore, women need safe spaces.

I don't care if they are nice men or kind men or would never hurt a fly. Some would so they can all get out. And that should be the end of that.

 

[SILKWORM]

Admittedly, I've been skimming but to be honest @SueDoyou most of your points we've all been over a million times either in past gender threads or even in other spaces....some of us have been at it for years. It gets tiring.

Hats off to the people here who still have the patience to interact with someone who comes in and goes over the most basic points thinking we just haven't been exposed to alternative perspectives or haven't ever spoken to trans people in our lives.

I've been wondering if we could make some sort of sticky document that we could refer new people who come here to? It'd save a lot of time and energy.

 

[SueDoyou]

You haven't really engaged with a lot that's been said here though, just repeated "not all men" in one form or another and painted yourself as some sort of victim of us horrible women who just aren't open minded enough for you, when precisely the opposite is true.

The difference actually comes down to the fact here that I don't feel like I have talked about men, in my world view I am talking about transgender women (which may I point out I never call them women, always transgender women) because the way you guys see the world is that they are men in dresses. You come at me with the #notallmen shut down. I don't see genuine transgender women as men.

Maybe the answer to everyone's fears in most instances is the access of a those third spaces for transgender people. I don't know how badly that would go down, I am sure you would tell me they would hate it and protest it, but I think they have to understand safety and allowances for people who don't want to share with them. I guess where I am from I am so used to unisex toilets, every restaurant or bar pretty much is unisex in my neck of the woods.

Admittedly, I've been skimming but to be honest @SueDoyou most of your points we've all been over a million times either in past gender threads or even in other spaces....some of us have been at it for years. It gets tiring.

Which says that this space is not what I thought it was when I entered admittedly. I really thought it was a gender discussion thread, you should change the name to gender critical discussion, because if there is no scope for anyone with differing views to enter it seems a bit misleading.

I will say that many of you guys rely on phrases like 'they always do this', 'they always think this', 'they're doing it again' and it seems you are sitting there waiting for trans people to duck up so you can put them in a box and stereotype them one way to disintegrate.

Anyway! Thank you guys, I will actually go now. Wew! As stressy and heated as these places come, I actually enjoyed learning and finding out a lot more from here. I don't ever have conversations like this in real life at all so its been a nice education thats pushed me onto other videos and places of interest.

Have a fantastic Christmas! I actually really appreciate this, zero sarcasm or anything. Typing it a hard one to avoid that.

 

[petitspois]

I thought international men's day was a joke but a work email tells me it's happening. On looking at the events taking place, I was quite pleased to see talks on men's mental health and wellbeing but also to see one on how to challenge inappropriate behaviour towards women in friends and colleagues.

 

[nothanksbabes]

The difference actually comes down to the fact here that I don't feel like I have talked about men, in my world view I am talking about transgender women (which may I point out I never call them women, always transgender women) because the way you guys see the world is that they are men in dresses. You come at me with the #notallmen shut down. I don't see genuine transgender women as men.

Maybe the answer to everyone's fears in most instances is the access of a those third spaces for transgender people. I don't know how badly that would go down, I am sure you would tell me they would hate it and protest it, but I think they have to understand safety and allowances for people who don't want to share with them. I guess where I am from I am so used to unisex toilets, every restaurant or bar pretty much is unisex in my neck of the woods.



Which says that this space is not what I thought it was when I entered admittedly. I really thought it was a gender discussion thread, you should change the name to gender critical discussion, because if there is no scope for anyone with differing views to enter it seems a bit misleading.

I will say that many of you guys rely on phrases like 'they always do this', 'they always think this', 'they're doing it again' and it seems you are sitting there waiting for trans people to duck up so you can put them in a box and stereotype them one way to disintegrate.

Anyway! Thank you guys, I will actually go now. Wew! As stressy and heated as these places come, I actually enjoyed learning and finding out a lot more from here. I don't ever have conversations like this in real life at all so its been a nice education thats pushed me onto other videos and places of interest.

Have a fantastic Christmas! I actually really appreciate this, zero sarcasm or anything. Typing it a hard one to avoid that.

I think you should go and speak to some prominent transgender activists about their feelings about a "third space". You'll be written off as a transphobic bigot. Funnily enough many people here started at the same point as you, trying to be reasonable with people who are vulnerable from men's misogyny and homophobia, and ended up here for a reason, the reason being that they won't accept anything other than total capitulation and the trans rights movement is largely comprised of misogynists who can't even empathise with us when they're telling us they are us.

Question - what's the difference between a transgender woman and a man? How do we know? Why do we have to disregard the reality we observe because of someone's internal sense of self?

I think transgender women are gender non-conforming men, and so what? There's no human right to be recognised as the opposite sex just because someone says so. There's no place on earth men don't have equal or more rights than women, so what exactly are they fighting for in countries like the UK, if not the right to control how other people think of and perceive them.

 

[Ekathrina]

People go to a lot of trouble to engage with posters who come on here with pro-trans opinions, to give them information and to reply to any points made. In the main they generally and repeatedly ignore peoples often very salient and well thought out posts even when they a response to claims that they themselves have made. At that point it becomes both frustrating and counter productive to bother to any great extent.
When probably the majority of us are left leaning or liberal, feminist, working class with a fair smattering of parents, LGB, neurodiverse people thrown in, it gets a bit tiresome to constantly be accused of having ‘black and white’ thinking, being privileged or right wing no matter how superficially nice the person is that’s doing it.
I also find that a lot of those people come on here and suggest that although they think trans women are women -
There should be a third space for toilets etc.
That sex offenders shouldn’t be housed in female prisons because they aren’t real trans.
That transwomen shouldn’t be allowed in womens sports.
Any one of those statements is unacceptable to the TRA’s which makes them just as much a TERF as the rest of us, ironically.

 

[klarakluckbag]

I'm older than many of the posters here, and I guess that's why my experience is different to theirs. I assume that the internet has played a large part in things because I can tell you now that not one single person that I know, who is in my age group, honestly thinks that TWAW. We never have, and we never will. The concept to us, is literally laughable. We have all known cross-dressers, we have seen them in real life, we've seen them in the media, we had sympathy and understanding, but as they weren't muscling-in on our spaces, we weren't bothered by them. (I once watched a daytime show which featured cross-dressing men and their wives, and I can remember feeling intensely sorry for the poor spouses, none of whom looked particularly joyful at the prospect of sharing a wardrobe with their husband and his fetish for the rest of their married lives).

Trans "women" these days, are a whole different breed. They're not happy with wearing a dress and make-up, they want the full woman "experience", whatever that is supposed to be. Obviously, they don't want lower pay, the bulk of household chores and childcare, and sub-standard healthcare. They do however, want to compete (and win) in women's competitive sport, they want to undress in front of actual women and girls, they want to be considered for women's sex-protected job roles, they want to menstruate, give birth and breastfeed (they don't actually want to do the icky stuff of course, but they do like to talk about it in women's groups)

Us old terfs really don't have a problem with cross-dressers. We honestly don't. But what is peaking women like me, is hearing about lesbians being abused and insulted for not wanting to have sex with men. Or seeing a 6ft tall man in a women's swim team. Or reading about SA victims, being expected to share a supposed "safe space" with men. Or knowing that women have been grape by a man, whilst serving time in a women's prison.

You can offer all of the excuses that you like, but something is not right. And it's not women, terfs or otherwise, that are the problem.

 

[nothanksbabes]

Why would one need to unlearn something like this if they always have been the opposite sex inside?

All they have is reductive stereotypes of us. It's offensive and embarassing.

 

[SILKWORM]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but remember that trans woman who claimed to have had a uterine transplant as was pregnant? Well, it seems like he has had the baby!

I'm inclined to believe that his "husband" (who is a trans man - actual woman) was the one carrying the baby, or there was a surrogate involved but either way that is grim. Imagine having a man take credit for everything your body had to go through during pregnancy and childbirth.

 

[emm]

Admittedly, I've been skimming but to be honest @SueDoyou most of your points we've all been over a million times either in past gender threads or even in other spaces....some of us have been at it for years. It gets tiring.

Hats off to the people here who still have the patience to interact with someone who comes in and goes over the most basic points thinking we just haven't been exposed to alternative perspectives or haven't ever spoken to trans people in our lives.

I've been wondering if we could make some sort of sticky document that we could refer new people who come here to? It'd save a lot of time and energy.

You can make a wiki page here ( not sure how but a lotnof other threads have them)

 

[mindlessness]

Have a fantastic Christmas! I actually really appreciate this, zero sarcasm or anything. Typing it a hard one to avoid that.

It's November 9th.
There's 46 more days until Christmas. On average a woman is killed ever three days by a man in the UK. So that's 15 or so women still to be murdered by men before Christmas. How bleeping horrid is that?

Men still killing one woman every three days in UK – It is time for “Deeds not Words” – Femicide Census

www.femicidecensus.org

There's a reason our feminism prioritises biological women over trans-identified males.

I don't see genuine transgender women as men.

How do you know who is genuine or not? Who gets to decide? Do they need a neo tina? fake breasts? Do they need to wear a skirt? Wear makeup? pitch their voice up? giggle coquettishly?

Which says that this space is not what I thought it was when I entered admittedly. I really thought it was a gender discussion thread, you should change the name to gender critical discussion, because if there is no scope for anyone with differing views to enter it seems a bit misleading.

We're happy to have the discussion, it's just people tend to leave - just like you're doing - when they discover we're not willing to agree biological men are women.

Maybe the answer to everyone's fears in most instances is the access of a those third spaces for transgender people.

Trans people don't want a third space. We've already pointed this out to you.

 

[TooFarScone]

Detrans talks about his surgery in this video, and how the gender clinics were so insistent on getting him the SRS after he said No countless times.
He actually goes into deep detail about his surgery and I never knew they drill a hole into the mans pelvis in order to make a “neo-tina” sounds absolutely horrid. The fact TRA are pushing kids into getting this is beyond ducked.

Reminds me of a detrans event I went to a few years ago. One of the women said that as she was being discharged from hospital after her mastectomy the doctor gave her a leaflet about hysterectomy....or it might have been the hysterectomy and he gave her a leaflet for phallo. But yes, pushing her along to the next surgery.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

I'm no brigade, or affiliated with any trans person or system. I'm simply another woman with an opinion that differs to yours and you don't get very far with your own beliefs when you conduct yourself like this. I like to think I came in here with respect and a willingness to listen and learn but you seem to be one of the same type of people you are saying you hate. Back up against the wall and unwilling to see any other opinion other than your own as anything other than militant and dangerous.

Thank you to everyone else btw! I really appreciated you coming back and saying you didn't find me difficult, I really just wanted to listen and reading through four of these threads (It took a while!) it did me a world of good to continue to grow my world view.



I would agree with this.

I can't debate with someone who simply repeats that 'not all trans people are threatening' and 'I'm leaving now' followed by 'oh I'm back. I don't feel you're contributing much at all other than the usual tropes.

 

[17daize]

I just want to say that appreciate you all so much for calling out the bull and helping me process how I feel about all of this terrifying misogyny. I honestly find it so difficult being someone who usually talks my feelings and opinions to death being unable to talk about something so pressing without being called a bigot. My best friend shut me down “TWAW” and told me she was concerned about me when I mentioned how confused I was about the disregard for womens sports recently. I think there are many women in their early 30s that react in this blinkered way and I’m really confused as to why that is. I kind of get this sense that some women and gay people have their own experience of being disadvantaged and sort of project their experience on to that… Something to do with internalised misogyny and homophobia too maybe? I just find it so confusing!! I was thinking that Sue might be a man or a troll but then remembered that I can talk about this with maybe one of my friends without them totally dismissing the realistic concerns and repeating “twaw, not all tw…”.

 

[Deeznutslol]

My best friend shut me down “TWAW” and told me she was concerned about me when I mentioned how confused I was about the disregard for womens sports recently. I think there are many women in their early 30s that react in this blinkered way and I’m really confused as to why that is. I kind of get this sense that some women and gay people have their own experience of being disadvantaged and sort of project their experience on to that…

That and the fear of being labelled a transphobe/terf and getting rejected from society I think.

 

[DoraMaar]

I don't see genuine transgender women as men.

It doesn't matter what you 'see' them as - science sees them as men. If their DNA is tested they are men and if their bones are dug up 1000 years from now science will know they were men.