Gender Discussion #28

[weeweegie]

Delurking to share this. Am I nuts or is this person nuts? Why in the name of duck would you NOT want doctors to ask questions before agreeing to cut your body parts off? Duty of care is more important than some bruised feelings, bloody hell.

Ok, as you were

‘Sorry you had to go through that’
I know quite a few women who have been after a breast reduction due to back issues etc. Do these women walk in and get the green light for that surgery just by telling the doctor ‘reduce my breasts and don’t ask questions’. No they effin don’t. What about women wanting sterilised? They are told no and sent away to think about it.

The entitlement of this person is astounding.

 

[Edie Po]

Again with hyperbolic nonsense.
Nobody is against trans people existing..bloody hell we're not Thanos

Men are not women TIMS are male and TIFS are female.

 

[klarakluckbag]

Delurking to share this. Am I nuts or is this person nuts? Why in the name of duck would you NOT want doctors to ask questions before agreeing to cut your body parts off? Duty of care is more important than some bruised feelings, bloody hell.

Ok, as you were

It really annoys me that when women with cancer have their breasts removed, it's called "double masectomy".
When trans men have their breasts removed, it's coyly named "top surgery". Why is the name different for women and (pretend) men?

For the poster who asked if any of us "work in medicine". I work in midwifery. I can categorically state that women have babies. Not biological men, and definitely not trans women. Anyone can call themselves anything they like*, but biology will win out in the end, no matter how many bits you chop off.

*That's not strictly true though, is it? If I come to work, put on a white coat and hang a stethoscope around my neck, call myself a doctor, and go around giving medical advice to people, I'd be in a lot of trouble. We can't just insist that we're something we're not. The world doesn't work like that!

 

[Glaschelle]

@KillarneyChick you wondered how we could possibly have these views. No, I did not grow up with trans people. I’m in my 40s and live in central Scotland. Are you really that surprised there were no trans people in the 80s here??

In all honesty I didn’t give trans people a second thought until Caitlin Jenner arrived, someone who lived as a man for 65 years, enjoying all the privilege that being a rich, successful white man brings. Fathering children, had a successful career behind him. Then in retirement he thinks, I think I’ll become a woman now. And is applauded and even given the title woman of the year at an awards show. What a f liberty, is what I and I’m sure most other women thought. An absolute insult to real women (if you disagree that’s fine, you’re entitled to disagree).

After that I didn’t give it much thought again. Until it got closer to home last year and there were some issues at my work that opened my eyes (I can’t go into details obviously). I stumbled upon this thread last year after feeling like I was going mad and it helped me feel less alone in my thoughts. Since then I’ve read books, listened to podcasts etc so know a lot more about trans issues than I did a year ago.

Not that any of us have to justify ourselves but we are mostly leftist in our politics, anti racist, all for gay rights etc. I’m also for trans rights (would like to know what rights they don’t have though, feel free to enlighten me). I just do not think trans women are women or that trans men are men. Up until fairly recently this wasn’t controversial. I have no hate in my heart for trans people nor do I deny their existence. I would just like women to be protected as the sex class that they are.

You’ve been given a lot of answers to your questions, I’d be interested in your thoughts on what’s been said.

I'm a bit older than you and am from central Scotland. However when I was young there was a programme on tv about a person called John who transitioned to become Julia. It wasn't a quick fix - they had to live as a female for 2yrs (?) before they got the surgery.

There was also follow up programmes which they described the difficulties, including physical problem with the gender reassignment surgery. One of the programmes showed them marrying a man. I'm sure they died just before the pandemic. They were quite critical of trans movement.

I also knew a FTM transgender person who worked in a local shop.

Despite my working class, Catholic upbringing by the 1980s there seemed to be an understanding of live and let live.

What has happened now is that it's gone the other way. Women are being eradicated. But strangely when talking about prostrate cancer the term Man isn't considers to be exclusionary. Strange isnt it!!!

 

[fizzyjerk]

I hope you gave it a bad review.

Of course I did! It's first one star.

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

Marilyn, of 80s gender-bending, friend of Boy George fame, is going full TERF and as a gay man who paved the way for these fuckwits, he's bang on.

Marilyn has been terfy for a while now - so glad to see these awesome screenshots, as when I started to read your post I was scared that he’d caved under pressure


Sadly I think Boy George is on the side of TWAW, but Marilyn’s right: he and Boy George, as well as women like Annie Lennox and Alison Moyet, were absolutely gender-non-confirming and genuinely challenged gender expectations

And what’s the betting Marilyn doesn’t get anything like the abuse Alison Moyet got for being openly GC

 

[klarakluckbag]

Of course I did! It's first one star.

Despite what that book says, babies aren't "assigned" male or female by a doctor. Most babies aren't even delivered by a doctor.
One of my patients had two home births after very quick labours, and both babies were delivered by her husband (After the second one, we made him a badge saying "honorary midwife" )
The husband didn't have to wait until a doctor, or anyone else, declared what sex his children were. Despite him not being a doctor, he knew straight away what sex they were. Strange, but true!

(In the UK, babies are given a NHS number straight after birth, or as soon as possible after, if not born at a hospital. This is when the baby's sex is first "officially" recorded, although it may already be on their hospital notes, and will also be noted later on the child's birth certificate. Occasionally, the person entering the data gets it wrong. This may not be noticed by anyone for several days, and it's not until a parent notices that the sex is wrong on their discharge notes, or a midwife or health visitor spots it in the red book, that it will be changed to the correct sex, although this can only be done within a limited timeframe. But definitely not 45 years later!!)

 

[maytoseptember]

We often see the terms and phrases 'genuine trans', 'I don't have a problem in anyone being trans' or 'it's not those sorts of trans people that I object to' but that's the problem - anyone pretending to be a woman is a threat. It opens the door, little by little to all the rest of it.

Exactly. The “true trans” argument doesn’t wash with me (especially when talking about children). It’s dangerous to separate trans people into good and bad types, no matter how quiet, nice and law-abiding an individual trans person might be. The problem is the ideology, every time, which why we need to take the people out of it, true trans or otherwise.

The problem is, “true trans” as a concept is so insidious. I read a transcript of Maya Forstater’s appearance on the Today programme this morning, and even Michal Hussain was grilling her about whether she would consider a man who’s had full SRS surgery to be a woman. It’s “true trans” by another name - this idea that genital surgery really does change your sex.

But it’s a moot point because very few people have the surgery anyway

 

[GladiatorReady]

‘Sorry you had to go through that’
I know quite a few women who have been after a breast reduction due to back issues etc. Do these women walk in and get the green light for that surgery just by telling the doctor ‘reduce my breasts and don’t ask questions’. No they effin don’t. What about women wanting sterilised? They are told no and sent away to think about it.

The entitlement of this person is astounding.

It's notoriously difficult for women to get breast reductions on the NHS - here are just the very first few from a google news search - all recent articles

Woman whose four-stone breasts mean she can't wash dishes denied NHS reduction

"It’s not for aesthetic reasons, my back is in bits."

www.lancs.live

My giant 38P boobs cause cysts, sores and rashes but NHS has refused op

A WOMAN with size 38P boobs who was denied an operation on the NHS is finally getting a reduction “just in time for her birthday”. Laura Howes’ chest is covered in cysts, sores and rashes, and she …

www.thesun.co.uk

Student turned down again for breast reduction surgery

A student who suffers constant pain from her 32K breasts hopes to fund her own surgery after once again being turned down by the NHS.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Waitress refused breast reduction surgery on the NHS for her 36JJ bust

Carly Smart, 21, from Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, whose bust weighs 1.5st, said she feels 'suffocated' when she bends over to pick up stock and her back feels like it's going to snap.

www.dailymail.co.uk

North Wales woman with 40K bra size begs for breast reduction but NHS refuse

The 22-year-old from Llandudno is now fundraising to have the operation privately

www.dailypost.co.uk

Mum with 40H bra size fundraising for reduction as NHS England refuse op

Kelly Staples has been going back and forth to the doctors for a reduction since she was 13, and said she lost three stone but it made no difference to the size of her chest

www.walesonline.co.uk

Woman denied NHS reduction despite burning boobs on Nando's grill

Esme 'Lilli' Clemson, 20, now wants strangers to help pay for her reduction

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

Often the reason given is having too high a BMI - even though these two ladies wore size 8 trousers

Size 8 woman blocked from NHS surgery on 34HH boobs because she's 'overweight'

Toni Lewis, 27, was forced to spend her £7,600 inheritance on surgery to reduce her breasts which caused her back pain, rashes and hindered her dancing career

www.mirror.co.uk

Woman, 23, spends £6,000 having 32K breasts reduced after NHS refuses surgery

Emily Legge, 23, from Cardiff, has suffered with agonising back and shoulder pain from her 32K breasts since she was a teen - but was refused the NHS reduction operation

www.mirror.co.uk

It reminds me of the transwomen who moan and say that 'cis women walk into the doctor and get HRT instantly for menopause'... no, they very often don't.

 

[HockyRorror]

(In the UK, babies are given a NHS number straight after birth, or as soon as possible after, if not born at a hospital. This is when the baby's sex is first "officially" recorded, although it may already be on their hospital notes, and will also be noted later on the child's birth certificate. Occasionally, the person entering the data gets it wrong. This may not be noticed by anyone for several days, and it's not until a parent notices that the sex is wrong on their discharge notes, or a midwife or health visitor spots it in the red book, that it will be changed to the correct sex, although this can only be done within a limited timeframe. But definitely not 45 years later!!)

Out of interest, what happens if nobody notices and the limited timeframe runs out? Does the baby have an incorrect sex on their birth certificate until they are old enough to legally change it even though they are actually that sex? I’m intrigued and confused!

 

[LadyAlys]

Of course I did! It's first one star.

The book by Rachel Rooney, I am my body and my body is me, is a lovely book. It’s simple and beautifully illustrated. I bought two for my grandchildren. You can’t of course get it in any mainstream outlets and the author has been hounded and abused. You can get it from Transgender Trend online.
I saw my five year old grandson today, wearing the pretty bracelet that he made at forest school and his new sparkly blue trainers. He was hanging upside down from the climbing frame, being Spider-Man.
Leave kids alone!

 

[exhausted_mother]

Signed

Bit baffled by this - I

Out of interest, what happens if nobody notices and the limited timeframe runs out? Does the baby have an incorrect sex on their birth certificate until they are old enough to legally change it even though they are actually that sex? I’m intrigued and confused!

Also a midwife and never had it happen, your NHS record and your birth registration are two different things. People for example get all bent out of shape if the baby in the hospital is known as Baby Mum’s Surname as they intend to register baby as Baby Dad’s Surname. The NHS paperwork doesn’t replace the legal birth registration. I didn’t take any paperwork from the midwife to either of my kids birth registrations. I think I got asked if the sex was right I can’t honestly remember!

 

[wafflesnwings]

It's notoriously difficult for women to get breast reductions on the NHS - here are just the very first few from a google news search - all recent articles

Woman whose four-stone breasts mean she can't wash dishes denied NHS reduction

"It’s not for aesthetic reasons, my back is in bits."

www.lancs.live

My giant 38P boobs cause cysts, sores and rashes but NHS has refused op

A WOMAN with size 38P boobs who was denied an operation on the NHS is finally getting a reduction “just in time for her birthday”. Laura Howes’ chest is covered in cysts, sores and rashes, and she …

www.thesun.co.uk

Student turned down again for breast reduction surgery

A student who suffers constant pain from her 32K breasts hopes to fund her own surgery after once again being turned down by the NHS.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Waitress refused breast reduction surgery on the NHS for her 36JJ bust

Carly Smart, 21, from Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, whose bust weighs 1.5st, said she feels 'suffocated' when she bends over to pick up stock and her back feels like it's going to snap.

www.dailymail.co.uk

North Wales woman with 40K bra size begs for breast reduction but NHS refuse

The 22-year-old from Llandudno is now fundraising to have the operation privately

www.dailypost.co.uk

Mum with 40H bra size fundraising for reduction as NHS England refuse op

Kelly Staples has been going back and forth to the doctors for a reduction since she was 13, and said she lost three stone but it made no difference to the size of her chest

www.walesonline.co.uk

Woman denied NHS reduction despite burning boobs on Nando's grill

Esme 'Lilli' Clemson, 20, now wants strangers to help pay for her reduction

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

Often the reason given is having too high a BMI - even though these two ladies wore size 8 trousers

Size 8 woman blocked from NHS surgery on 34HH boobs because she's 'overweight'

Toni Lewis, 27, was forced to spend her £7,600 inheritance on surgery to reduce her breasts which caused her back pain, rashes and hindered her dancing career

www.mirror.co.uk

Woman, 23, spends £6,000 having 32K breasts reduced after NHS refuses surgery

Emily Legge, 23, from Cardiff, has suffered with agonising back and shoulder pain from her 32K breasts since she was a teen - but was refused the NHS reduction operation

www.mirror.co.uk

It reminds me of the transwomen who moan and say that 'cis women walk into the doctor and get HRT instantly for menopause'... no, they very often don't.

This!! And it reminds me of the shortage of HRT in the UK (I can't remember if it's been resolved or not). Women, all too often, are not believed by doctors when they need medical assistance and still face discrimination - being accused of hysteria, overthinking things, health concerns dismissed and imagining illnesses. I remember fighting tooth and nail for nearly 6 years for a diagnosis and to be put on medical treatment.
It shocks me at how they (TRAs) cry foul at the smallest things - how on earth are they going to be able to advocate for themselves, trans men and trans women in the long run? I'm not against trans women and trans men - I never have been and never will be - and I've grown up in a big city where everyone and anyone lives. Trans women are not women and they have to be honest with themselves about that. They must advocate for their own spaces using existing laws that are in place to protect vulnerable communities (they've been so hard fought for) and realise that meaningful change happens when they are genuine allies to other minority groups. I wish they'd stop tearing women down, talking over us, engage in Feminist literature and theories, stop dehumanising us and collectively gaslighting us. It's women who know how to mobilise, show solidarity and stand against patriarchy - it always has been and I believe it always will be

 

[JAR21]

Marilyn has been terfy for a while now - so glad to see these awesome screenshots, as when I started to read your post I was scared that he’d caved under pressure


Sadly I think Boy George is on the side of TWAW, but Marilyn’s right: he and Boy George, as well as women like Annie Lennox and Alison Moyet, were absolutely gender-non-confirming and genuinely challenged gender expectations

And what’s the betting Marilyn doesn’t get anything like the abuse Alison Moyet got for being openly GC

I don't think George is. I'm pretty sure he's tweeted before that men aren't women, or something along those lines.

 

[Vanelope]

The last baby I had I only saw a man once during the whole pregnancy - the diabetes consultant one time. All the other doctors, midwives and the doctor who did her first check were women. And it made a difference to me in the room. I will always remember those women - they were awesome.

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

I don't think George is. I'm pretty sure he's tweeted before that men aren't women, or something along those lines.

He tweeted this in January of this year (though it seems he has now deleted it so perhaps he’s had a change of heart). Handily Marilyn came along to hand his arse to him (‘Widow Twanky’ )

And there’s some other stuff from a couple of years ago too.

 

[klarakluckbag]

Out of interest, what happens if nobody notices and the limited timeframe runs out? Does the baby have an incorrect sex on their birth certificate until they are old enough to legally change it even though they are actually that sex? I’m intrigued and confused!

Even if no-one else noticed, the registrar would when entering the baby's details onto the system at the birth registration appointment. They are very careful with all details, and everything is double-checked with the parents. They will use translation services if the parents can't speak English, and so on. The chance of a baby being registered as the wrong sex by accident, is practically negligible. That's why those "modern parents" who go to great lengths to keep their child's "gender" (i.e. sex) a secret, always make me laugh. There are going to be lots of people who know what sex their baby is. Midwives, GP's, health visitors, the registrar, and so on. It's recorded on a whole load of legal documents, birth certificates, medical notes, child health and immunisation records, etc, etc.

No-one is getting a free "change my sex" pass that way I'm afraid!

 

[JAR21]

He tweeted this in January of this year (though it seems he has now deleted it so perhaps he’s had a change of heart). Handily Marilyn came along to hand his arse to him (‘Widow Twanky’ )

And there’s some other stuff from a couple of years ago too.

That seems to be different to what I thought I saw some time ago. Either I didn't see what I thought I did, or he's changed his mind!

 

[ButtonDownTheHutches]

That seems to be different to what I thought I saw some time ago. Either I didn't see what I thought I did, or he's changed his mind!

I don’t think he can make his mind up, or he just says anything for attention.

For example, there’s this:

Boy George Keeps Saying Stupid Things About Trans People

The singer said trans people who insist on being gendered correctly think “whatever’s going on for them is much more important than anything else.”

www.them.us

But then I recall him saying something ridiculous about how it was wrong to exclude trans women from womens sport due to physical advantage, because some people grew up with the ‘advantage’ of living nearer to a swimming pool than others so they could train more, so there are all kinds of unfair advantages in sport

 

[weeweegie]

That seems to be different to what I thought I saw some time ago. Either I didn't see what I thought I did, or he's changed his mind!

We discussed those tweets from George in here at the time. Pretty disappointed but not surprised. Such misogyny from him. I don’t understand how men, yes even gay men, think they can tell women what they are allowed to think and feel and fear. See Nish Kumar and his hysterical rant about womens fears about losing their spaces and how that is just LUDICROUS. Yeah Nish we get it, you think women and stupid, hateful and hysterical! You’ve made that abundantly clear. Boy George is the same. It’s men not wanting women to have a voice or opinion. It’s misogyny and it’s rife