English Channel migrant crossing crisis #2

[monga]

It’s all kicking off in Dublin, apparently that guy swinging the pole is a terrorist, I don’t agree with violence but locals shouldn’t have to put up with these unknown asylum seekers living in their back lanes.

 

[Moth]

Really? Looks pretty self explanatory to me and I’m dyslexic!

Yes really, at least in my experience. I work for Citizens Advice and I've had many British clients that needed help to complete forms a lot simpler than this.

 

[NeverEnough]

Crap.

From your posts you clearly are not concerned about the impact a continued open door policy has on anyone else.

Your chief concern is about helping as many 'desperate souls' into the UK and stuff the outcome of that. You also seem unphased that a fair number:

A) Are clearly economic migrants.
B) Coming here for criminal intent/committing crime
C) Playing the system

Well as I've said, thankfully the majority don't agree with continuing things as they are. Bleating on here and social media isn't going to change that.

I also recall someone on here (not saying you) once said that helping and taking in large numbers of asylum seekers trumps and takes priority over those who are unemployed, struggling to survive, put food on the table and pay the bills.

Well I think that stinks to be honest.

It clearly shows that some do not give a stuff about the struggles of fellow people in their own country as long as a few tens of thousands who have entered illegally are alright, looked after and paid for by the rest of us.

I think we’ve established that bleating on social media and “caring” are the only things that certain posters will actually do. ‘Caring” of course will not feed, accomodate, or get legal representation for vulnerable asylum seekers. Lack of resources apparently. Sounds like an excuse to me. Can’t eat those either.

Been told that “can’t and won’t“. are different as well. Maybe but end result in both scenarios is the vulnerable refugee gets zero support from that person.

Caring. Cheap and useless substitute for action since the birth of the retweet. Available to all at no personal cost whatsoever. Comes with shitloads of free virtue points as well (disclaimer not redeemable anywhere) and no real world consequences for anyone. Absolute bargain.

 

[monga]

Has the Government said where they will be housing all the people who are arriving but cannot claim asylum and cannot be deported? People seem to think that just because they wrote it down in a Bill means that it's magically possible to deport people without any other agreements

Depending on which position the government takes, though whichever it is would still likely mean that people are allowed to go outside of whatever compound they are kept in as otherwise its very similar to being in detention, how does it deal with gangs? Is there not a risk that people who cannot have their claims processed and possibly get the right to work/study are going to increasingly turn into illegal work or be targeted by gangs?

We have also seen with the kidnapped/missing people that they were targeted because they had not paid their debts for being smuggled in - you posted articles about this a bit but I'm not certain you've read them. Something I recently learned is that a lot of smugglers work on a "pay us partly now and once you're in the country and successful you can pay us back later". Anyway, this seems like a potentially perfect opportunity for that to flourish, especially as the Government seems to be doing very little to target smugglers who have settled in the UK

Of course I’ve read them..,it’s not going to bear fruit overnight but at least it’s a start.
I don’t think illegals should be in community settings anyway the government has a duty of care to its own citizens first and foremost, especially where undocumented individuals are concerned.

 

[Blueblue123]

There's a saying about arguing with a mad person which I can't remember but feels very relevant right now.

 

[IngressUK]

Ah yes, splitting up families and leaving people isolated from their support systems famously causes absolutely no issues in society.

Granting asylum to one person should not be a green light for partners, children and the rest of the extended family to come over.

This is why the country is becoming overwhelmed. Granting asylum to one person isn't just that, it opens the doors to many more whom haven't applied for asylum but have a current right because of that one person who has.

I'll never expect to agree and quite honest I'm not bothered.

The fact of the matter is there are far more people cheering today's long overdue announcement than are against it.

You should be able to live your life with some certainty that what you're doing isn't going to suddenly become illegal and you'll be penalised for it. Whatever your views on asylum are, and I expect you to reply to me with "they're arriving illegally" (even when it has been judged that this is not the case where the intention is to seek asylum), this is just basic legal stuff

If it was down to you many millions would be allowed to come here just because you believe it is 'the right thing to do'.

Zero consideration for the various knock on effects of doing so. Pressures on Housing, schools, the NHS, public services and the enormous costs that would be burdened upon those that do pay their taxes.

Again, the fact of the matter is the UK CANNOT help and support the entire world's 'hard luck cases'.

 

[Blueblue123]

It's clear some posters in here have unsavoury, discriminatory views towards certain people and can't even back down and admit they wrongly assume people of certain races and nationalities are bad criminals.

 

[Polythene Pam]

There's a saying about arguing with a mad person which I can't remember but feels very relevant right now.

Honestly you cannot reason with the unreasonable. If anyone ever needs proof of that, show them this thread.

 

[Moth]

What’s the safe route you keep mentioning? Surely even you can see an open door policy is not sustainable, social services are already a joke there has to be something in place to stop the profiteers and help those in genuine need.

See that's exactly my point, you simply confuse the issue:

• You posted a link in which Michelle Donelan said the majority of people arriving by small boat are 'economic migrants' and they should use the safe and legal routes.
• You asked if she's lying
• I said yes, she's lying - I said that because the majority of people arriving by small boat are not economic migrants and there is no 'safe and legal route' that they can use
• You then ask me about 'economic freeloaders' and the safe route 'that I keep mentioning'

I don't know who you mean by 'economic freeloaders' or what safe route you are referring to so I can't offer an answer to your question. I fear if I try to do so that we'll end up back at the your interchangeable definitions of asylum seekers, migrants (economic and others), refugees etc.

 

[NeverEnough]

Appreciate it’s hard for people in that situation but resources are so limited here (In general) they’re lucky they’ve got a hotel tbh.It was reported last year asylum seekers didn’t like the housing they were given they wanted moved to London , maybe they’re expecting too much from UK life the whole country’s struggling.

Interesting too that she was simultaneously in a situation where there was “nothing to do“, whilst being interviewed in a location “bustling with activity” and seemingly not located in the hotel she is too frightened to leave. Odd.

 

[pepe le pew]

There are people who flee from war and terror.
We saw them when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban when the Americans moved out. Remember that? People clinging to the wheels of aeroplanes?
And there are chancers. People who deliberately lie to get their hands on free accommodation and money from our benefit system. Who stay in hotels being fed and watered complaining about being bored. Pretending to be children. Lying pieces of shit. It stings. But the facts are these. The human race is on the move. We want to live in better conditions, safer countries, free from oppression. You’d have to be nuts to want to live in North Korea or other countries with nutters running them. I can only go by what I see on the news. And all I see is boat loads of able bodied young men. No children, no women. If life is so bad in your country why leave your loved ones behind? Don’t tell me it’s your custom or culture. Everyone reading this board, without exception, god forbid, would be grabbing hold of their kids, partners, parents even their pets if their lives were threatened.
My husband was an asylum seeker. I met him in 1993, we married in 1998. 25 years now, 30 really including the dating. The asylum system was probably easier back then. We spent probably £30,000 on lawyers fees. Yep, that much. But he was allowed to work, that is the problems with now. These men aren’t allowed to work.
Only last week on the news they were saying there were millions of job vacancies. No one to fill them. Well there are people to fill them. Give these men work visas. Tax them too. Pay national insurance, for the health system they will be using. They want to contribute. They didn’t come here to sit on their hands or chat with their firmness in shopping centres all day long.
In my town there are tents beside our railway station. Homeless people live in them. In Milton Keynes there are hundreds of tents, some close to the shopping centre, homeless people live there. No one is putting them in hotels. Or feeding them.
Im not saying put British people first. I am saying, put the blame where blame is due. Squarely, on the shoulders of The conservative government who have done nothing but make the asylum process worse, for users, abusers and claimants.
We need more social housing. Thousands and thousands of homes. New estates. Hundreds of them. Social housing, rent controlled housing.
Stop private landlords charging exorbitant rents. A thousand pounds a month is theft In a town, maybe not in central London, but certainly in suburbs and boroughs. Enough already. Someone do something. Unclog this drain and get this country moving again.

 

[monga]

“The deportation flight of 50 people was cancelled after the Court of Appeal found they had insufficient access to legal advice due to a lack of working mobile sim cards while they were kept in immigration detention.”

That doesn’t take away the fact they were criminals and allowed to carry on committing crimes due to the flight being cancelled, why weren’t they kept in detention once the flight was grounded ….Let me guess

 

[Merpedy]

I keep asking you and others what is the effective asylum system you want in place?

For me, it's one that works. People shouldn't be having to wait for years and years for their claims to be processed as our current system with accommodation basically depends on people being on constant rotation in and out of hotels. If that requires the HO to train (to a good standard) more caseworkers and actually pay them well to retain them then so be it - an asylum system is never going to be free and if I remember right someone has pointed out a million times that an effective asylum system would cost less than the broken ones the Government is depending upon
Of course, on top of that the rest of it should work too - if a person is deemed to not meet the criteria for asylum and has exhausted the legal process (and yes, some lawyers may not think it is worth appealing decisions in certain cases) then they should be deported, or something should be done to prevent them from becoming undocumented. Clearly the HO has a problem with that too, but it's not discussed a whole lot and gets branded as an issue with asylum seekers

Preferably, and this has been recommended to the Government, they set up a way for people to apply for asylum and be processed (much like Ukrainians) without having to make long and dangerous journeys - though of course they would likely first have to flee to a designated 'safe country' (probably Italy, Greece or Turkey which seems to have lost that status) first or be allowed to apply from countries such as France - I would think this is necessary for a bit given that there are people in France who are waiting to simply make the journey. That would affect the business model of the smugglers and would hopefully stop issues with hotel/temporary accommodation capacity and deportations

 

[Moth]

So what point was it you were trying to make? It’s clearly not against the law if numerous countries do it
If they’re housing them in buildings then there are various health and safety laws that must be followed, a disused hospital in Dublin was deemed unsuitable because it fell below the standard required so the alternative is modular housing.

My point was that the article in The Sun misrepresents the facts when it claims "moaning civil servants in the Housing Department and Ministry of Defence are trying to kibosh the plan" to house asylum seekers in tents by claiming that "it would breach EU rules — known as directive 2013/9/EC — which sets high standards of accommodation that asylum seekers must be housed in".

The EU Directive simply implements the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) which the UK and all of its former partners in the EU have agreed to follow. The UK agreed to abide by ICESCR in 1976, the EU directive wasn't issued until 37 years later in March 2013. The EU Directive doesn't set any standards for the accommodation that should be afforded to asylum seekers. This is what allows EU members to say that they are abiding by the EU directive while arguably being in contravention of the ICESCR.

It is the job of civil servants to point out to government when their plans may be in contravention of UK or international law. That doesn't mean they are 'moaning' or 'trying to kibosh the plan'. However The Sun knows that it's readers won't understand that and plays to the wider opinions that asylum seekers are somehow getting away with something and the EU is inhibiting our 'sovereignty'.

Ironically the true purpose of the proposal to house asylum seekers in tents is laid bare in the article by the government spokesman who admits that it is intended to save money and to deter people from coming to the UK to seek asylum. Agreeing to abide by a convention that people should not have to live in horrible and inadequate conditions and at the same time saying that we are going to house asylum seekers in horrible and inadequate conditions in order to discourage them from coming to the UK are not compatible and provide prima facie evidence that by doing so the UK (and EU countries) are in contravention of the convention.

 

[BigMavis]

I think its fairly obvious what she means. Some people pretend to be asylum seekers.
Is that not a possibility

 

[tarkathrotter]

It’s an absolute disgrace what’s happening. Notice in Ireland there wasn’t a single news article on the Kurdish terrorist living in the camp and swinging a metal pole about - or the samurai sword. In the UK you are lucky to have the Mail - in Ireland every paper is like the guardian and covering everything up. It really is pathetic what the government media be NGOs are doing - I was never into conspiracy theories before but there has to be some dark reason behind encouraging all of this immigration of undesirables.

 

[Merpedy]

Realistically the EU countries have no real incentive to agree to any agreements with the UK because of this. The UK is basically saying "we're not taking any of these people so you guys should take them and spend your resources on dealing with them lol"

Even if the UK introduces a safe route of sorts, it would need to work for these countries to accept it as a safe route. The Afghan scheme isn't exactly functioning as it is so can't really point at that

I genuinely want to know what those cheering this Bill are thinking when nothing really points to it working anyway? At the moment it just looks like the cheering is for symbolically hostile measures and language and not much else

 

[Piff paff puff]

I’m sure they’ll just cut across to treasure Ireland..

Suella Braverman: Illegal immigrants 'at odds with British values' - as small boats bill passes next hurdle

The home secretary claims criminality is 'very closely linked' to Channel crossings, with 'many' people getting involved in drugs, violence and prostitution. Meanwhile, MPs voted through controversial legislation to tackle small boats and it will now head to the Lords.

news.sky.com

Why is the state 10yrs behind with British life? What they need to do is go into the ghettos where these crooks are being kept at our expense and witness the mess for themselves. Dismiss the civil servants who refuse to process them as they want them here. Hire unbiased immigration staff. Send them all back to Albania etc.

 

[Gloria Rostron]

How would you propose we deal with the labour shortage?
Bring back child labour?

For every job posted on Indeed, there are 100 applicants.

I don't think Southall Leisure Centre having a vacancy for a cleaner in the changing rooms is a good enough reason to allow illegal immigrants in to the country.

 

[monga]

It’s all kicking off in Ireland once again.

---

UK’s migration bill could put thousands of children ‘into arms of criminals’

Children’s social services bosses in England denounce plans that will ‘irreversibly distort the care system’

www.theguardian.com

UK asylum seekers who complain about conditions ‘threatened with Rwanda’

Refugee Action report calls asylum seeker accommodation ‘racialised segregation and de facto detention’

www.theguardian.com

Because I know this thread likes to focus on young men, I thought it may be interesting to remind that there are women and children being affected too:




The full report:

https://www.refugee-action.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Hostile-Accommodation-Refugee-Action-report.pdf

I think you’ll find it’s not only refugees stuck in one room or starving, there’s medical professionals commenting on cases of malnutrition from old people to young children in our own society, do you think someone is going to wave a magic wand and make everything better

Cost of living: GP concerns over rise in signs of malnutrition

A group called GPs at the Deep End is concerned patients are lacking in basic vitamins and minerals.

www.bbc.com