Okay fair enough maybe I have
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You explained yourself brilliantly and I’m on the same page. So many people using their frame of reference and their rationality and logical reasoning and applying it to the 2 on trial . That’s pointless in a way . Also 2 things can be true , they caused their child’s death that is indisputable. They should go to prison . However I really think they are damaged individuals and a product of their lives perhaps mixed with genetics etc and they really think they loved her .
You are absolutely right. We need to understand so we don't repeat the same mistakes.
We don't live in a society of "hang the bastards" we live in a society of reform whether people agree with that or not it's how we live.
Okay if people are so insistent they did love the baby (which is why they took off with her) what things that have been shown so far would suggest acts of love? This is what I’m struggling to see here
You’d think it would make more sense, and be less conspicuous, to just buy a new pair of suitable waterproof shoes, than to walk around with plastic bags on your feet.
Buy a pack of socks too.
Their Argos shop could have been more extensive and suitable, especially for people who’d already had the experience of living in a tent.
I suppose it shows the level of their paranoia, and desire to hide, at that point.
ETA: I know they’re not rational, just making an observation for the sake of understanding.
Having dry, well cared for feet is essential for long term survival.
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Reform? What reform is there for child killers? And why do you think there should be? And what mistakes do you think have been made here other than what the parents themselves did? There comes a point when you simply cannot look for reasons and justifications for some crimes and the sentences reflect that
That Argos shop is so hard to understand! In the burnt out car they had baby stuff, including a snow suit, so that shows IMO that they know that stuff is essential, but didn't replace it! Any argument that they didn't want to buy baby things to draw attention to themselves, is negated by them buying a pushchair, dummies and a baby sleeping bag. Did I read that they went in a Primark too, but didn't buy anything? Like they could have got warm clothes for all of them and boots! The fact that they didn't speaks volumes to their lack or care for her and to some extent themselves!
A point I’m trying to make, is it wasn’t just because they were in a tent in the middle of winter that the baby died, it was because they were in a tent in the middle of winter without the required equipment and clothing for her.
People, and babies, have been forced into these conditions and survived many times, with just some basic equipment, warm clothing and a source of heat.
These pair of eejits couldn’t supply this, when they had the money and means (at Argos), which was purely neglectful, and not just because they were ‘forced’ off grid.
They were probably living in the same conditions, and I don’t mean in a tent, but in a tent without proper equipment, when the first baby was removed from them.
ETA: I know people who live all year in yurts with their kids, it’s doable. Not my cup of tea though.
People, and babies, have been forced into these conditions and survived many times, with just some basic equipment, warm clothing and a source of heat.
These pair of eejits couldn’t supply this, when they had the money and means (at Argos), which was purely neglectful, and not just because they were ‘forced’ off grid.
They were probably living in the same conditions, and I don’t mean in a tent, but in a tent without proper equipment, when the first baby was removed from them.
ETA: I know people who live all year in yurts with their kids, it’s doable. Not my cup of tea though.
That’s the thing for me. There are absolutely tales of other parents going on the run from SS to try to keep their baby but none of them seem to be as entirely irrational as MG and CM.
They either go abroad and live in a house/flat or they hide at a friends or in a caravan and are ultimately found with the sort of things you’d expect - and with plenty of things to take care of a baby and appropriate clothing for whatever time of year it is for both them and baby. Their care ultimately may not be sufficient but they’ve done the basics to blend in and to take care of themselves.
CM and MG have basically none of that, they lost it all in a fire and then seem to have got more and more erratic. Perhaps the lack of baby stuff can be explained by some of the theories that they didn’t love her or care about her but that doesn’t explain why MG was walking around with bags on his feet instead of shoes or why Constance had random padding in her coat instead of just buying another coat, or why people with some money as they had couldn’t get somewhere more suitable to stay - yes they couldn’t go to a premier inn but they managed to taxi most of the way across the country while being searched for, they could have found somewhere that wouldn’t have asked questions or bought a caravan or something.
It’s that that makes me think there’s some sort of real mental illness here. Not justifying what they did in the slightest, but if it really was just that they didn’t care about the baby, why were they also in such tit situations? In the ones where people leave their babies home alone to party, they’ve taken care of themselves after all.
Not a single person has said they showed her acts of love.
Multiple people have said they loved her / think they loved her in their own way - that’s not the same thing.
You were asked yesterday to share the posts you were referring to, because your comments said things that are not true of anyone on here.
We all agree that the two were to blame, responsible, at fault.
We all agree that they deserve to be sentenced appropriately.
And that’s exactly what I’m asking people to explain- what out of everything that has been revealed shows they loved her in their own way other than being determined they were keeping an item of property as an act of rebellion to authority
Honestly, just let them get on with congratulating themselves for their intellectual and moral superiority
because us medieval lot clearly don’t understand anything at all if we’re of the opinion that there is copious amounts of evidence that these two were wilfully cruel and callous rather than loving this baby in their own way or any kind of way. And you only have to read the early threads to know people are absolutely gaslighting currently on here 
still reading things like “compassion for CM as a mother” and then all the pearl clutching when others are merely stating they’re shocked by that attitude towards these two people that truly couldn’t have done less to care for their children.I wonder if opinions would be the same had their first baby that was also kept in a cruel and disgusting environment (enough to be removed) had instead of being rescued alive, been found rotting in a lidl bag under a load of beer cans? What if there had been no chase to evoke a sense of desperate longing to keep their child (alive or dead who cares eh
chuck an egg mayo sarnie wrapper on top of her whatevs). If their first baby had been found dead in the exact same circumstances as Victoria, opinions would be very different. Whether we will know exactly what they did to their other kids to have had all of them removed, who knows but I imagine all the pontificating about their poor lives and their kind of “love” for which there are literally no examples would not be happening.—
I said -
Not a single person has said they showed her acts of love.
Multiple people have said they loved her / think they loved her in their own way - that’s not the same thing.
And you replied -
And that’s exactly what I’m asking people to explain- what out of everything that has been revealed shows they loved her in their own way
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I can’t explain what I’ve already said isn’t there!
NOTHING shows acts of love IN OUR EYES because their behaviour was not normal or appropriate.
They believed that running with her was what they needed to do. They were wrong. But they still believed it.
They think they were driven to it by their beliefs. They were wrong. But they still believed it.
They thought they could keep her safe. They were wrong. But they still believed it.
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I honestly don’t know how many more ways to explain this.
If you genuinely believe that anyone on this thread has justified their actions, anyone has said they aren’t to blame, anyone has agreed with what happened, anyone has said they aren’t guilty, then please share the posts so we can discuss specifics.
One last time.
I am not looking for justification.
I don't *think* there should be reform for child killers. There is. There is reform for everyone which is why we don't have the death penalty.
You can read the thread stop asking us to repeat all the things we've already said.
No one has said anything like the above. Those on the ‘evil killers’ side of the fence keep making unfounded accusations against those on the ‘thought they loved her but incapable of keeping her safe’ side, but it’s not reversed. Some people are actually able to read a thread and engage politely rather than blanket dismissing the thoughts of others.Honestly, just let them get on with congratulating themselves for their intellectual and moral superiority
If anyone is gaslighting hit report.
If you’re still fixated on a post from days ago that you weren’t happy that I didn’t respond to - with the word medieval - then move on.
Absolutely and with the reams of evidence presented people are still obsessing over ‘trying to understand’ and blaming the police SS or whoever else for how they dealt with this rather than the parentsHonestly, just let them get on with congratulating themselves for their intellectual and moral superiority
I wonder if opinions would be the same had their first baby that was also kept in a cruel and disgusting environment (enough to be removed) had instead of being rescued alive, been found rotting in a lidl bag under a load of beer cans? What if there had been no chase to evoke a sense of desperate longing to keep their child (alive or dead who cares eh
They’re not even accused of being child killers 
they’re accused of neglect resulting in death.
As someone linked to earlier in this thread or maybe a previous one, SS deal with children dying from neglectful circumstances where the parents aren’t prosecuted at all. One example was the tik tok woman who fled to Ireland after 3 (?) babies died via suffocation from unsafe sleeping practises. She wasn’t criminally prosecuted, the mitigation was to remove future babies which would’ve stopped it happening again.
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they’re accused of neglect resulting in death.As someone linked to earlier in this thread or maybe a previous one, SS deal with children dying from neglectful circumstances where the parents aren’t prosecuted at all. One example was the tik tok woman who fled to Ireland after 3 (?) babies died via suffocation from unsafe sleeping practises. She wasn’t criminally prosecuted, the mitigation was to remove future babies which would’ve stopped it happening again.
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I don’t think anyone cares whether you want to understand or not. Just asking you to be respectful and ignore those who do rather than jumping on each post and distracting the conversation with your ramblings
Where has anyone blamed the police or SS?
And people have tried to understand the mindset of criminals since time immemorial, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, trying to understand isn't the same as justifying or excusing or feeling sorry for them.
So we can't try and understand why criminals do the things they do? All we can say is "they are evil" over and over and that's it. Not much point of having a thread then is there.
I have a theory this was something to do with Goldilocks. There’s a few correlations.
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