Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #5

[casperon]

not sure about psychosis… what are the odds they both have it? but people with personality disorders tend to gravitate towards each other

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

It wouldn’t be a legal defence/ argument etc though- I don’t imagine they would be allows to bring it up

I’m fairly sure they weren’t suffering psychosis in the medical sense. They haven’t displayed any behaviour that indicates that

 

[MavisBeacon]

I’d love to know what changed in their heads from before the fire to afterwards.

It‘s evident from the items recovered from the car that they had bought the things a new baby would need; snowsuit, clothes, nappies etc, so at some point they must’ve expected to look after Victoria properly. If you really didn’t care about your baby, you just wouldn’t bother buying anything.

Something seems to have snapped in them after the fire and they couldn’t seem to get themselves together to replace all the baby items. I don’t believe it was just because the police were looking for them, I feel like there’s more to it than that. They went to shops that sold baby goods yet didn’t buy any. Why?

This. I think the car fire was a critical incident that exacerbated their paranoia and poor mental state/decision-making.* Before that, nobody knew they had a baby with them.
There was a 'sliding doors' moment when they could have stayed at the car, realised they were in an impossible situation and handed themselves in for help and support. Victoria would have been taken away, but she would have lived. The fact they didn't is damning.
Instead they ran, and everything unravelled from there. In my opinion, I think from that moment onwards they stopped thinking rationally about the baby as a human life, and instead just spiralled into an overwhelming paranoid delusion.

*WRT mental illness, you can't be mentally well and do what they did, even if you can't be diagnosed with something formally.

 

[Aberscot]

i am a bit surprised she didn’t ask for bail, even to be admitted to a fancy rehab place.
I want to know if her mother and brother are still attending, imagine having to listen to how they treated a potential grandchild although must be horrible for anyone attending actually.
If they felt that running away was their only option after baby died why didn’t they just hand themselves in though as they must have know they couldn't keep trapsing about with a dead body. What was their plan then just avoid capture?

 

[Lalla]

This. I think the car fire was a critical incident that exacerbated their paranoia and poor mental state/decision-making.* Before that, nobody knew they had a baby with them.
There was a 'sliding doors' moment when they could have stayed at the car, realised they were in an impossible situation and handed themselves in for help and support. Victoria would have been taken away, but she would have lived. The fact they didn't is damning.
Instead they ran, and everything unravelled from there. In my opinion, I think from that moment onwards they stopped thinking rationally about the baby as a human life, and instead just spiralled into an overwhelming paranoid delusion.

WRT mental illness, you can't be mentally well and do what they did, even if you can't be diagnosed with something formally.

I agree - I've posted previously about how I didn't get the why of it all, why weren't they buying the baby clothes and a carrier/ sling, why buy a buggy to then dispose of it. But it makes sense that the fire was a catalyst for what followed, their previous plan fell apart (which clearly wasn't a great plan either but at least it seemed to include proper equipment for the baby, and provision for their cat too) and they weren't able to come up with anything other than hopping from place to place and ending up sleeping rough. I think after the car they had no plan and were just making random decisions almost daily.

As for after the baby died, I don't think they'd necessarily thought about what to do next (other than keeping going on as they were, day by day).

I think they are both institutionalised, MG by his lengthy prison sentence which started at such a young age and CM by boarding school and then her time in that cult, for significant portions of their lives other people have been making all their decisions for them and that must have a massive effect on them mentally, even if it doesn't meet the criteria for a formal diagnosis.

 

[kabukigirl]

I’m still of the mind that they didn’t view her beyond a possession. She was theirs and nobody was taking her. They didn’t afford her any humanity as a real person. It wasn’t loving what they did, it was guarding a possession. So to me, people may say they did this or that for her but if they actually loved her as you should love a baby they would put her first and give her up. Even after she died they wouldn’t say where she was and just left her to rot rather than let someone lay her to rest.

I work in Children’s Social Care and this is spot on with how some of our familes are. Children are possessions and theirs to treat / do with what they please, especially when they are little. Though less extreme, this behaviour by CM and MG isn’t unusual.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

Sliding doors moment is the perfect way to describe it.

I suspect they just didn’t ask for bail because they knew (were advised) that they wouldn’t get it.

 

[Yesweknowyouhavekids]

I’m still of the mind that they didn’t view her beyond a possession. She was theirs and nobody was taking her. They didn’t afford her any humanity as a real person. It wasn’t loving what they did, it was guarding a possession. So to me, people may say they did this or that for her but if they actually loved her as you should love a baby they would put her first and give her up. Even after she died they wouldn’t say where she was and just left her to rot rather than let someone lay her to rest.

Same and that running away with her was like settling a score rather than an actual want to keep her

 

[Hotchips]

I agree with the above, the car fire was the catalyst for the unraveling behaviour. However at that point nobody was looking for them or had a clue they had a baby , they had the car full with what appeared to be appropriate supplies for themselves and the baby including their pet cat so they were going somewhere. I am wondering why they fled at that point, leaving cash, passports and essentials behind them. There was no alert out for them. When they had the previous car breakdown the few days before they clearly retrieved all of their belongings and the cat, why didnt they leg it that time, paranoia im guessing, the world conspiring against them when they had the second car incident. As far not replacing basic and essential clothing items for themselves and the baby is beyond my comprehension.. their bank cards didnt get lost in the car fire so there was no issue with getting money. I am eagerly awaiting what her Defence team will be saying.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

My theory is they were just frantic, it was unravelling quickly and they didn’t know how to get out of the situation. They were just responding without time to think and plan and likely didn’t have all the information about who was looking for them and why which might’ve influenced their actions.
fairly simple everyday explanation really!
---

You can’t possibly have thought his banging on about mayo like a Neanderthal was highly manipulative he just sounded like the loser he is. Highly manipulative

What’s so funny?
Talk about a rude smartarse.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I am wondering why they fled at that point, leaving cash, passports and essentials behind them.

I think this is because too many questions would be asked by emergency services:

Car probably not registered to them yet
Possibly uninsured too
No infant car seat
Placenta in the back
If they were asked for any ID or to explain those points, they’d have been found out anyway - they knew this and panicked.

 

[neroli]

I agree - I've posted previously about how I didn't get the why of it all, why weren't they buying the baby clothes and a carrier/ sling, why buy a buggy to then dispose of it. But it makes sense that the fire was a catalyst for what followed, their previous plan fell apart (which clearly wasn't a great plan either but at least it seemed to include proper equipment for the baby, and provision for their cat too) and they weren't able to come up with anything other than hopping from place to place and ending up sleeping rough. I think after the car they had no plan and were just making random decisions almost daily.

As for after the baby died, I don't think they'd necessarily thought about what to do next (other than keeping going on as they were, day by day).

I think they are both institutionalised, MG by his lengthy prison sentence which started at such a young age and CM by boarding school and then her time in that cult, for significant portions of their lives other people have been making all their decisions for them and that must have a massive effect on them mentally, even if it doesn't meet the criteria for a formal diagnosis.

CM doesn't present as the type to take orders from anyone imo and MG is an opinionated loser and low life..I just see codependency and arrogance.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

i am a bit surprised she didn’t ask for bail, even to be admitted to a fancy rehab place.
I want to know if her mother and brother are still attending, imagine having to listen to how they treated a potential grandchild although must be horrible for anyone attending actually.
If they felt that running away was their only option after baby died why didn’t they just hand themselves in though as they must have know they couldn't keep trapsing about with a dead body. What was their plan then just avoid capture?

That would mean her acknowledging needing help, or admitting to wrongdoing, though. Rehab for drugs or alcohol wasn’t needed so that leaves a private mental health facility, where she’d be assessed and watched closely.

Neither of them seem to realise - even now - that they caused this to happen. She wouldn’t (IMO) cooperate with being a MH inpatient. Interested to see if either has cooperated with psychiatrists for the defence.

 

[Hotchips]

Thinking towards their defence and really the only observation we have heard them make so far was them infering they were driven off grid and that victoria was healthy and well cared for. Usually witnesses are produced to dispute the prosecution case or indeed downplay their actions. Im wondering who they could produce to say that they were good parents trying their best and witnessed their parenting etc. Any acquaintances they had from anti social services groups who spout about babies being stolen from their parents wont hold much weight. Perhaps this is a reason for the changing of KCs so often, that there is noone to challenge the crown's case. How it could be challenged from what we have heard is beyond me Perhaps they simply relying on an indeterminate cause of death and try pick holes in the prosecutions witnesses statements.

 

[Thegirlwhouk]

This. I think the car fire was a critical incident that exacerbated their paranoia and poor mental state/decision-making.* Before that, nobody knew they had a baby with them.
There was a 'sliding doors' moment when they could have stayed at the car, realised they were in an impossible situation and handed themselves in for help and support. Victoria would have been taken away, but she would have lived. The fact they didn't is damning.

I agree with this in spades and I also think that CM and MG did 'love' her but their understanding of love and care was hugely flawed. I don't believe they set out to kill her, I think they felt strongly that she was 'theirs' to own and that evil SS had no right to take her away. Then things spiralled and they were caught out, they underestimated what would happen. Then they made a series of awful decisions that no parent in their right mind would make. They put possessing her over caring for her and they were both so frantic and honestly such damaged individuals that they didn't stop to consider the harm baby Victoria was facing.

I don't think they are inherently evil - an inherently evil parent would intentionally torture and hurt a child. She did not care for Victoria and she neglected her hugely, causing all sorts of damage but I don't see her as 'evil'. I see her and him as very broken individuals who Victoria was unfortunate enough to be born to. Inherently evil is someone like Emma Tustin who tortured and clearly enjoyed torturing that poor darling Arthur Labinjo-Hughes.

I think if they hadn't cared for her in their own way, they'd have dumped her (alive or dead) before the car fire and fled the country. They obviously tried to keep her alive for some time and that's because in my opinion, they 'wanted' her.

Their care and 'love' is obviously tit but it doesn't mean it came from a place of evil.

Disagree if you will, I don't mind.

The important thing is they are absolutely guilty as sin and deserve to be punished for that and they do not ever deserve to have another chance at parenthood.

 

[sebanna]

While I don't believe they are evil (because evil is a strong word and I don't believe their main motivation was to cause the baby to suffer) I think they are both narcissists and can't see anything from anyone else's view point. They exteranalise blame and take no personal responsibility for what happened to Victoria. I think if they showed real remorse the public may have some sympathy towards them. The way they treated her body was unbelievable and shows that they are not capable of normal emotions or rational behaviour.

I wonder what was going through their heads in the time after Victoria died? They must have spent days stuck in a cold shed with no real idea of what to do.

 

[granny grumpsticks]

Regarding MG, believe it or not I did have some compassion for him as he did seem meek on CCTV, and as he hadn’t, as far as we know, been in more trouble I thought he may just have reformed to a degree.
That was until I saw his highly manipulative behaviour on arrest and during interview. Selfish and entitled through and through.
They keep wiping any prior thoughts of compassion away when I see the reality of their behaviour.

I actually had some compassion at the beginning for him too but that all disappeared when he opened his mouth

 

[MmmB777]

What’s so funny?

Politeness police mysteriously not on duty eh Wooly strange that! I understood what you meant, he constantly attempted to control the narrative in any way he could. Essentially, he got his way and got his food and he absolutely enjoyed then rubbing that in. Both of their reactions in the arrest videos are attempting superiority at all times and show them for exactly who they are. No fear or paranoia on show and certainly no grief. Have a good weekend x

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

I don’t “believe” in evil at all. It’s meaningless, a concept that is based on religion, effectively to describe religious transgression.

humans are more complex than scholars in 300 BCE were able to realise. Thank goodness we’re so more more intelligent and sophisticated now

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Perhaps they simply relying on an indeterminate cause of death and try pick holes in the prosecutions witnesses statements.

I really think this is all they’ve got. No one can possibly argue that the death wasn’t a result of the situation that CM and MG created.