Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #5

[ChiaraRimini]

I don’t think the criminal justice process is going to yield a full explanation of the cause of their behaviour, I don’t think that’s what it is designed for.
An explanation might come through mental health diagnoses. But I think this is such an extreme edge case it’s hard to know what wider lessons could be learned for child protection. It’s not like agencies failed to pick up on warning signs, they successfully concealed the pregnancy until the placenta was found.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I have a theory this was something to do with Goldilocks. There’s a few correlations.

Was the milk for porridge…?

 

[Yesweknowyouhavekids]

Where has anyone blamed the police or SS?

And people have tried to understand the mindset of criminals since time immemorial, there's nothing wrong with that. Again, trying to understand isn't the same as justifying or excusing or feeling sorry for them.

There have actually been a few posts on this thread alone where people have said they don’t think the police/SS handled this well and the outcome may have been different. It would take me ages to go back and quote all these due to how slow the website is running but the posts are undeniably there if you want to scroll through

 

[Emsie]

And people have tried to understand the mindset of criminals since time immemorial

Since medieval times I'd say say ay @InTheDollsHouse

 

[Yesweknowyouhavekids]

So we can't try and understand why criminals do the things they do? All we can say is "they are evil" over and over and that's it. Not much point of having a thread then is there.

But it’s understanding there are limitations to that - people have floated several theories about since the day these two went missing which have been proven incorrect as the evidence has come to light. Suggestions of domestic abusive coercive control mental illness drugs all sorts- people were also keen to shut down the very true fact that they previously neglected other kids . Sometimes you have to face up to the facts that some people are just not nice people and there are no other mitigating factors

 

[pommobear]

There have actually been a few posts on this thread alone where people have said they don’t think the police/SS handled this well and the outcome may have been different. It would take me ages to go back and quote all these due to how slow the website is running but the posts are undeniably there if you want to scroll through

I don't think that's the same thing as absolving CM and MG from blame. Police response to crime is consistently criticised, it doesn't mean anyone thinks the criminals aren't to blame.

 

[Yesweknowyouhavekids]

I don't think that's the same thing as absolving CM and MG from blame. Police response to crime is consistently criticised, it doesn't mean anyone thinks the criminals aren't to blame.

No it doesn’t but you said people didn’t say that. I’ve just pointed out they have

 

[Emsie]

But it’s understanding there are limitations to that - people have floated several theories about since the day these two went missing which have been proven incorrect as the evidence has come to light. Suggestions of domestic abusive coercive control mental illness drugs all sorts- people were also keen to shut down the very true fact that they previously neglected other kids . Sometimes you have to face up to the facts that some people are just not nice people and there are no other mitigating factors

I feel like we are getting somewhere now.
There have been several theories you are quite right, because that is the point of this thread is it not. I remember in the earlier threads a whole discussion on coercive control and whether it was or wasn't. Once we saw the cctv that theory was put to bed.
We did also discuss drug use and now that theory has been put to bed.
We all agree with you! They are the worst and do not deserve the parent title. Some of us seek to understand it from our lived experience. I am a parent by adoption so I do feel a bit of compassion to my sons birth mother but that doesn't mean that I justify her actions. Other people have been in abusive relationships so bring those points to the table. All valid contributions.
All this back and forth of who said what is making for a boring thread.

Anyway.... when are these love birds back in court?!

 

[Yesweknowyouhavekids]

Has anyone seen any shred of remorse/compassion from MG during any point during the proceedings? I found it interesting when it was revealed Constance cried in court when they said about her saying her daughter was dead but I haven’t seen anything similar from MG?

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

They’re not nice, they’re arrogant selfish and fairly thick. Their actions led directly to their babies death.

but OBVIOUSLY there is still a reason for all this behaviour. Add in their highly unusual background and talking about the reasons is fascinating.

 

[Emsie]

Has anyone seen any shred of remorse/compassion from MG during any point during the proceedings? I found it interesting when it was revealed Constance cried in court when they said about her saying her daughter was dead but I haven’t seen anything similar from MG?

I think it was reported that he got upset in the earlier days. In the days she wasn't at court.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Has anyone seen any shred of remorse/compassion from MG during any point during the proceedings? I found it interesting when it was revealed Constance cried in court when they said about her saying her daughter was dead but I haven’t seen anything similar from MG?

He was upset when the CCTV was shown of the baby when alive.

I think Constance’s crying was in interview, she was reported to shake her head in court.

ETA source https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/constance-marten-baby-shed-court-trial-b2494778.html

Constance Marten's baby seen for first time in CCTV shown to jurors

Footage captured aristocrat, on trial for manslaughter with partner Mark Gordon, unzipping her coat on street while on the run to show the infant inside

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

Okay if people are so insistent they did love the baby (which is why they took off with her) what things that have been shown so far would suggest acts of love? This is what I’m struggling to see here

I’m still of the mind that they didn’t view her beyond a possession. She was theirs and nobody was taking her. They didn’t afford her any humanity as a real person. It wasn’t loving what they did, it was guarding a possession. So to me, people may say they did this or that for her but if they actually loved her as you should love a baby they would put her first and give her up. Even after she died they wouldn’t say where she was and just left her to rot rather than let someone lay her to rest.

 

[WurstHunde]

I’d love to know what changed in their heads from before the fire to afterwards.

It‘s evident from the items recovered from the car that they had bought the things a new baby would need; snowsuit, clothes, nappies etc, so at some point they must’ve expected to look after Victoria properly. If you really didn’t care about your baby, you just wouldn’t bother buying anything.

Something seems to have snapped in them after the fire and they couldn’t seem to get themselves together to replace all the baby items. I don’t believe it was just because the police were looking for them, I feel like there’s more to it than that. They went to shops that sold baby goods yet didn’t buy any. Why?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Regarding MG, believe it or not I did have some compassion for him as he did seem meek on CCTV, and as he hadn’t, as far as we know, been in more trouble I thought he may just have reformed to a degree.
That was until I saw his highly manipulative behaviour on arrest and during interview. Selfish and entitled through and through.
They keep wiping any prior thoughts of compassion away when I see the reality of their behaviour.

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

I’d love to know what changed in their heads from before the fire to afterwards.

It‘s evident from the items recovered from the car that they had bought the things a new baby would need; snowsuit, clothes, nappies etc, so at some point they must’ve expected to look after Victoria properly. If you really didn’t care about your baby, you just wouldn’t bother buying anything.

Something seems to have snapped in them after the fire and they couldn’t seem to get themselves together to replace all the baby items. I don’t believe it was just because the police were looking for them, I feel like there’s more to it than that. They went to shops that sold baby goods yet didn’t buy any. Why?

My theory is they were just frantic, it was unravelling quickly and they didn’t know how to get out of the situation. They were just responding without time to think and plan and likely didn’t have all the information about who was looking for them and why which might’ve influenced their actions.
fairly simple everyday explanation really!
---

Regarding MG, believe it or not I did have some compassion for him as he did seem meek on CCTV, and as he hadn’t, as far as we know, been in more trouble I thought he may just have reformed to a degree.
That was until I saw his highly manipulative behaviour on arrest and during interview. Selfish and entitled through and through.
They keep wiping any prior thoughts of compassion away when I see the reality of their behaviour.

You can’t possibly have thought his banging on about mayo like a Neanderthal was highly manipulative he just sounded like the loser he is. Highly manipulative

 

[neroli]

I wonder when any of CM's previous boyfriends will come out of the woodwork?

 

[pommobear]

I didn't think either of them came across as highly manipulative on the arrest videos. They came across as total fruitloops if anything. I'm amazed the defence aren't going for a mental health angle (NOT that I'm saying that's what I believe/that it excuses/justifies etc etc before anyone jumps on me).

 

[Eltonjohnsflorist]

Being mentally ill doesn’t mean anything unless you lack capacity. Which they clearly didn’t. There is no mental health angle to be had, IMO

I mean 90% of the people in prison have mental health problems.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

Being mentally ill doesn’t mean anything unless you lack capacity. Which they clearly didn’t. There is no mental health angle to be had, IMO

I mean 90% of the people in prison have mental health problems.

It doesn’t mean anything in terms of trial or sentencing, because they’re guilty on every single charge, but… *dons body armour* it could be part of what led to their actions - paranoia, trauma response, emotional numbness.

Absolutely not saying it’s an ‘excuse’ or anything like that. But it’s background.