Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #3

[Veronicaaa]

a Scientologist. Which idk if we’d class as a cult

I think we would. An incredibly successful one.

 

[neroli]

SS usually work with the parent to keep the child safe, as long as they cooperate. They're not ogres. Constance was obviously not willing to give up her boyfriend who was a risk factor. No idea if any MH/drugs were involved. It really is baffling to the outside eye.

She chose MG over the baby's wellbeing from the start of the pregnancy. She dumped the baby callously after her death. I can't feel any sympathy for either of them, mental illness or not.

 

[maytoseptember]

Thankfully have never gotten up close and personal with a placenta but it feels really weird that something that’s mainly comprised of water survived a fire in an enclosed space such as a vehicle?

Placentas can be very large, and kind of meaty. Certainly not comprised of mostly water. Amazing things, albeit pretty gruesome looking!

 

[Dogmuck]

Just out of curiosity, if that scenario you’re expecting plays out, how will this effect their ability to have children in the future?
It’s just a horrible tragic case all round, but I can’t see these two staying away from each other or not trying to have more children when they’re both out again.

Edit: by ‘have’ I mean have access to/custody of

Hey Misty, I didn’t want to speculate too much about their potential licence conditions, it all depends on loads of factors. Like do they already have kids, have those kids been taken into care, why, do they have any access to them and on what terms? Then we’d need to know about why they ran away and hid, was this because they’d been told that any future children would be immediately placed in care? So much depends on knowing these details and what actually happened to the baby because there’s a potential chicken and egg scenario, like what came first, in this current scenario, bad parenting or the fear they would lose their child.

If I was their counsel then I would be leaning heavily on, they were forced into this situation because SS/authorities had given them no choice, they just wanted to be parents, yes they were naive, even stupidbut they were scared and had they been offered support and the chance to raise their child then they would never have run away, the baby wouldn’t have been born in a car, they wouldn’t have run off and exposed their child to the elements etc. I would definitely be looking to add some blame in that quarter as a minimum for mitigation…it may even be their full defence if they do go to trial.

The fact this is a gross negligence manslaughter means that it falls under involuntary manslaughter, they failed in their duty of care & their behaviour was so bad it is considered a criminal act or omission. The reality is that they didn’t intend for the child to die or even cause her really serious harm (that would be clear murder). Their negligent conduct lead to the child’s death, I don’t know exactly what the cause of death was, but I imagine their living conditions, while they were on the run, exposed the baby to the elements and who knows how the birth went or if that contributed?I do know this, the baby didn’t have access to the care it needed, that is offered and given to any newborn or sick infant, this was a clear omission to act by the parents and this is their negligence.

If the suggestions on here, about having other children that have been taken into care, are right then their access to the other kids may be withdrawn/restricted and those kids may, if not already, be adopted

Other licence conditions could be that they aren’t allowed to live together or see each other (I’ve dealt with many cases where this is the case and it is always ignored) but ultimately they are not gonna have someone on them 24/7 to ensure this condition, you can’t stop them having sex and you can’t stop her getting pregnant. If she did get pregnant again (by him) then they would have breached their licence conditions and they have to go back to prison and serve the remainder of their term. I have a feeling that wouldn’t stop them.

Sorry I do babble on, but did anyone see the news yesterday about the Romania people smuggler guy who was one of the main people responsible for the death of the 39 Vietnamese in the back of the lorry? He was charged with unlawful act manslaughter, this is where a crime (people smuggling) not an omission (which is the difference with our case here), causes the death. He pleaded guilty and got 12 years…for 39 horrendous deaths! GN manslaughter has much lower sentencing so don’t be too shocked if these two don’t serve much if any more prison time.Sorry

 

[okdo2022]

I'm reading it as they carried the baby in the lidl bag when she had died not whikr she wad alive?

Yeah. In her police statement she said she died 5-7 days after being born and she kept the body because she wanted an autopsy and proper burial. So she’s claiming she died on 4th Jan and they were found at the end of feb but then a witness saw them with the baby on Feb19th!!! So she must be lying.

 

[CabalofBolorneaise]

There won’t be any reporting on the other children.

I don’t think they actually did anything illegal until the baby was born, apart from MG not reporting his location, so I do wonder if we’ll only really find out basics of what happened while they were moving around the UK and when they were found.

No one knows anything other than what those two are willing to share. And I don’t think that will be very much, or very accurate.
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I won’t be surprised if MG tries to weight it heavily on CM and say he was worried about her and he knows now that it was wrong, he should have got help, blah blah

I wouldn’t be surprised if both of them are still fully convinced they had no option other than to do what they did and that’s all they’ll get out of them for the whole trial.

I’m not really sure prison is the right place for them tbh, unless it comes out the entire thing has been an act I think they’re just both incredibly mentally ill (to an extreme extent the vast majority of people are not - obviously the majority of people with MH issues would never do anything like they did) and would be far better off in a psychiatric facility.

 

[Traazers]

From the behaviour they're describing, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up deciding neither of them are fit to stand trial.

Neither of them seem to have the slightest grasp on reality or the severity of the situation and from the descriptions of them so far I'm not really sure what purpose jail would serve (is serving) for them. Not saying they should let them out on the streets, but psychiatric care seems far more appropriate, they sound entirely delusional.

They successfully evaded the police for weeks. They’ve not been confirmed as being unfit thus far. It’s far more likely IMO that they’re simply not remorseful, and still believe that going on the run was the right thing. That’s where the delusion lies.

 

[okdo2022]

Looks like they have had new charges applied and a court date set for Jan 2nd https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...boyfriend-face-two-charges-child-cruelty.html

 

[Dogmuck]

Could it be that Gordon admitted to harming the baby in such a way that the lawyer could not represent him in court (under oath etc)? Speculation only..

Not unless he wants to go not guilty, if the defendant tells his counsel he’s committed the crime, but wants them to run a not guilty defence, then they have to resign as they are not allowed to lie or mislead the court. They would be in an impossible position.

I imagine Gordon doesn’t like what he’s being advised to do. I imagine faced with the overwhelming evidence his solicitor has advised him to go guilty as going to trial will be disastrous.

 

[rosieflowers]

I've been following this case. I'm aggravated by some of the sympathy around CM that I just don't think would exist if she was uneducated, ugly and from a council estate. In many ways CM is worse in my opinion as she did have the education and the choices but still put something else (man? drugs?) ahead of the little baby she could have protected. But we will see what comes out. RIP to the little baby girl.

I think it's that CM clearly has severe mental health issues probably both genetic and as a result of adverse experiences. So as awful as it is she probably wasnt able to make better choices. Hence why SS wanted to remove the baby. You've not once mentioned MH issues in your post?

Youre right that a poor, ugly woman from a council estate probably wouldn't be given as much grace as CM. But that doesn't mean we should take that away from CM. It means we should extend the same to the woman from the council estate.

And you're right that socioeconomically disadvantaged people have it much worse because they are likely to have been exposed to adverse experiences since birth and generationally.

The right thing to do is not take understanding away from CM but to extend it to the other woman.
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Also the stereotype of a woman putting a man or drugs above her children is IMO misogynistic. I listened to a really good podcast recently about this trope and the real reasons why women do seem to do this but can't remember the name of it now

 

[MylaMoo]

There won’t be any reporting on the other children.

I don’t think they actually did anything illegal until the baby was born, apart from MG not reporting his location, so I do wonder if we’ll only really find out basics of what happened while they were moving around the UK and when they were found.

No one knows anything other than what those two are willing to share. And I don’t think that will be very much, or very accurate.
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I won’t be surprised if MG tries to weight it heavily on CM and say he was worried about her and he knows now that it was wrong, he should have got help, blah blah

Too little too late IMO but i completely agree with you on that for sure.
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I have just seen an article that a local young funeral director offered to pay for a service for Victoria. Even though infant funerals are usually free he wanted to provide a hearse and other options. He said he didn't want her to go out of this world with nothing

 

[MissTeddy]

The context of the baby being seen in the park without warm clothes on is just awful. Hypothermia could easily have played a part in the cause of death.

 

[Dogmuck]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that @Dogmuck, it was really helpful.

Actually my pleasure M2S. Ive been doing criminal law so long and I love this stuff…it’s in my bones I just worry I’m boring folk and/or confusing them xxx

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

If the taxi driver saw them first week of Jan, I still question why they were not found until the last week of Feb. That's nearly 2 months.
How were they paying for the taxi fares? With their card? And the police didn't think to track their card?

They were reported to probably have a large amount of cash, while they were missing. They tried to pay cash for a hotel, but weren’t allowed so left.
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They had at least a few months to prepare, so my guess would be they stockpiled cash from her trust fund while they were able to

 

[Dogmuck]

Was it not reported at the beginning she was getting funds monthly from the trust also, i know won’t cover the expensive lawyer but surely would need to go to some lawyer as she actually has an income rather than legal aid?
it’s not like she’s being spending it all monthly whilst on remand.

Well that’s the thing isn’t it, it’s clearly a trust that can be changed to suit their wealth. The trust will be written to give her a monthly income for personal expenditure, well being in prison she ain’t got any so that purse will be closed, being invested, earning interest, making her more money, until she’s rinsed the public purse some more and gets out of jail back to her trust fund…the landed gentry are the absolute villains in this case

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

How so?

The tweets are speculative about why CM might have been attracted to or started a relationship with MG. They’re inappropriate, unnecessary and vulgar.

Some of the posts across these threads have been comments - not speculation but actual thoughts or opinions being voiced - about how the posters hope that CM and MG will come to harm in prison.

(Obviously everyone has the right to post whatever they wish, I’m not thread policing.)

In my opinion, wishing physical harm on another person (and inadvertently wishing that someone else gets into more trouble for causing the harm, while already in prison) is considerably worse than idle speculation about why a person might have been attracted to someone else.
Especially as at the moment they are held awaiting trial - not actually found guilty.

 

[JCMSadie]

If those babies who she had photos off, were hers. And for whatever reason CM kept having them removed, you have to wonder if she would have kept going on the hope that one baby would be allowed to stay with her. I’ve seen it before.

Same. I trained as a midwife, and saw it numerous times during just those three years. One woman had six removed, and was still shocked when she was told that her latest pregnancy would end with the same outcome.

 

[Dogmuck]

Would these barristers be doing it on legal aid ?

It’s possible- they are top drawer though but maybe they want the fame of this case

It’s really easy to see how they could claim to be penniless but also be in the very privileged position to have connections to the right legal counsel. That’s why I the monarchy and landed gentry and historical inherited wealth - pleading poverty whilst simultaneously having someone manage their trust fund to keep that £££££££££ flowing for generations to come

 

[Dogmuck]

If the taxi driver saw them first week of Jan, I still question why they were not found until the last week of Feb. That's nearly 2 months.
How were they paying for the taxi fares? With their card? And the police didn't think to track their card?

They had planned their getaway and had stacks of cash. I think much of the information was discussed in the early threads. We’ve literally ummmmm and ahhhh’d about this for almost 12 months. I’m not sure where we got this info but didn’t we also find out they bought the car for cash. They were planning to leave the country, they weren’t planning to leave a paper trail for the police to find them, that’s why they zigzagged all around the country from north to east to south.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I didnt know that either, so was not meant with any ill intent.

I've always thought the two photos the press always use look like mugshots from a previous arrest but to be honest my passport photo looks like a prison mugshot

I had to renew my driving licence a couple of weeks ago, but my passport has expired, so I had to go into the post office and have them take my photo

If I ever go missing and they use that there will definitely be a tattle thread with wild speculation about what I’m running from