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Strange how this has turned out to be exactly what many people with knowledge and experience of the cases said all along yet were shouted down and called judgemental etc
Poor baby and the other babies that ended up in the car system
 
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4FoxAche

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Yes, and if previous pregnancies and births have been low-risk, and other babies born healthy, it would be difficult to argue that by seeing a midwife for antenatal care would have prevented the death.

Rightly or wrongly, I personally don’t believe CM wanted any harm to come to her baby. CM believed that she was the best person to be her parent. Ultimately I think they (or at least she) didn’t want the baby to come to harm. Whether that was warped by mental illness, drugs, external factors we don’t know of, or anything else, that’s some serious lengths they went to to not hand over their baby.
I understand the idea they didn't want any harm to come to her. However, it is the way they dumped her body that really contradicts that.

If she started becoming unwell, surely, you'd take her for medical care. Not doing so and then burying her under a pile of nappies in a shed is just horrendous.

The CCTV of them didn't show any sort of distress after losing their baby. When they were first found they didn't tell the Police where she was or what happened to her.

I can't wrap my head around someone deliberately harming a baby so I can't imagine they intended her any harm. However, their behaviour afterwards doesn't make sense to me either.
 
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iieee

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I don’t have an artistic bone in my body so I don’t want to criticise (I’d have drawn a stick man) but I agree - his face is seared in my brain from the mugshot they used!
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The last paragraph yes, but having money doesn’t mean you have a wonderful life.

This is where the defence will counter with her father’s mental illness and the time in the cult (which let’s not forget has just been in the news)

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I took this as being intended to show not that she had a wonderful life, but that the only reason they were cold and destitute was because they chose to be so rather than reveal their location to authorities. i.e. Victoria dying was entirely their choice.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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what kind of man has 5 kids and doesn't put them first. They both seem as bad as each other but it does annoy how the media seems to be very focused on her and her background.
Yes! I get that she makes a good front page - aristocrat heiress with trust fund flees and lives in shithole with sex offender - but he is equally culpable for anything that’s happened to their children.
 
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Asterix

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The poor jury on the Lucy Letby case. That has to be causing some of them financial hardship to be in court for 6 months, never mind what they're listening to.
 
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Dogmuck

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That’s what I thought, but someone earlier in the thread said they may well plead guilty to avoid the intrusion / lots of private details being known if they think they’re likely to be found guilty anyway.

I do wonder if one will try for a plea deal.
We don’t really do “plea deals” in the UK, we tend to accept a lesser charge if the higher charge would be difficult to make out. This is not the case here. What we do in the UK is give “credit” on sentence. So there’s a framework of what sentences to expect for the crime (known as sentencing guidelines). If you plea guilty at the first opportunity (so at Magistrates) you get 1/3 off your tariff - they’ve missed that opportunity but if they plead guilty today they will get a considerable reduction. Firstly they need to determine the category for this crime, you could be charged with gross negligence manslaughter for a health and safety breach, but it wouldn’t fall into the same category as this situation, there are many aggravating factors in this case. I think it will be a category A or B, which is the highest category, As starting point is 12 years but range of 10-18 years. Bs starting point is 8yrs with a range of 6-12 years. This is number of years in custody but they could get additional restrictions on top of this.
 
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Dogmuck

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They shouldn’t be, because all they’ve done before today is talk to each other and get told off.

I assume it’s because they’re co-defendants being charged together, @Dogmuck can you help?
Afternoon peeps…
At this point I feel that ITDH could do my job 🥰 Spot on ITDH, they are co-defendants and it’s normal for them to be in the doc together even if it’s was 10 of them. There is usually a court/prison officer between them. If they get too chatty the judge will close them down, but in the same way he/she would if someone in the gallery was chatting. They should have been advised to be cautious around the jury because they’ll make all sorts of assumptions based on their behaviour, they need to be showing the best of themselves or it’s game over, juries will see that behaviour and then they don’t need any facts, their minds are made up. Thats why smart criminals people come to court dressed nicely, behave nicely and play to the jury. Scumbags don’t care they are like whatevs but I’ve seen clear cut guilty cases get a not guilty because of jury fan girling a handsome crim with a sharp suit, puppy eyes and a nice smile. It’s a thing.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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I think this is why I am so intrigued by this case (although intrigued doesn’t feel like the right word) I have suffered with my mental health for as long as I can remember, I have an amazing support network and am very self aware of when I am slipping and need to go back on medication (I’m shit at continuously taking it) however I have recently had a mental breakdown - in hindsight it was terrible, I was not myself at all. Had I not had the support network I do and the access and willing to access medical help I’m not quite sure how bad it would’ve got. Honestly I can’t say I wouldn’t have gone off the rails and potentially lost my kids - who knows. Untreated mental illness can be incredibly dangerous, you completely lose yourself and all sense of normality. It’s really scary. Not excusing what has happened AT ALL. I can just see how things can spiral so terribly when you are mentally unwell.
She could just be a total piece of shit who knows.
I hope you’re okay ❤


My children are the reason I haven’t fallen apart. If they were taken from me - even if it were my fault - I can’t honestly say that I would be able to function or even carry on trying.

It’s not about making excuses. Absolutely not.
It’s about not jumping to conclusions. It’s about seeking to understand.

If CM is ‘just’ an evil woman who has knowingly and willingly caused this trail of destruction and devastation, that’s horrific, but at least she’ll be punished appropriately for her crimes.

If it’s driven by mental illness, once that’s managed and under control, she will be aware of what has happened and that will torment her forever. There’s no worse punishment than that, surely.
 
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Tangent Tiger

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It's all a bit sad really isn't it - at the end of the day you have a flawed couple, a baby who has died and no real resolution
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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I don’t think the lack of a medical check by itself would be enough.
Yes, and if previous pregnancies and births have been low-risk, and other babies born healthy, it would be difficult to argue that by seeing a midwife for antenatal care would have prevented the death.

Rightly or wrongly, I personally don’t believe CM wanted any harm to come to her baby. CM believed that she was the best person to be her parent. Ultimately I think they (or at least she) didn’t want the baby to come to harm. Whether that was warped by mental illness, drugs, external factors we don’t know of, or anything else, that’s some serious lengths they went to to not hand over their baby.
 
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Kittycat86

Active member
In her police interview, she apparently purchased petrol to do a DIY cremation so she could remove all evidence of the baby.

She then decided against it as she wanted a PM done and then a burial which apparently she also contemplated doing in woodland but was too weak from hunger to manage so left her in the shed instead.

I really don’t think this woman is mentally well to even contemplate doing any of this to her own child, it’s no excuse but I honestly think her judgement is mashed and she needs some serious psychiatric help.

You could also argue that’s rather calculated and she must’ve been compos mentis to make those kind of decisions depending the way you look at it and why wasn’t loverboy mentioned in any of this?

Either way she’s clearly not well and Folie a deux springs to mind, she will likely do everything in her power to attempt to get him off as she’s clearly smitten regardless that they’re both culpable.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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Can’t believe I’m about to cite Kerry Katona as an example lol but didn’t similar happen to her with that bloke Mark?
I have had (brief) dealings with them 👀
Work-related for me. When there were money problems and he was absolutely using her.
V interesting dynamic. He was in obviously in charge and doing all the talking but she was having to be there as anything was in her name.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

VIP Member
How did the police not catch them for 2 entire months? I vaguely remember this case but why not run adverts on billboards with their faces, utilise facial recognition technology, run adverts with their mugshots on the tv etc. They really could have ramped up notifying the public. Think how many places they went before they were caught- supermarkets, shops, taxis, restaurants. The workers maybe didn't know who they were because the public were not hugely aware of this case.
It was all over the news.

They kept their faces hidden - scarf etc - and they hid away well. Him alone going to a shop with a hat on (in winter) wouldn’t get a second look I don’t think. They actively avoided being seen.
 
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Kinderbelle

Active member
People seem to use CM's mental health and troubled background to justify her being the one who is being controlled/abused by MG, but what about him? He had a shit childhood, clearly had MH issues, committed a heinous crime and landed in jail which continued a shit childhood into a shit adulthood in prison (which, of course, was deserved due to said crime). He has had a terrible life, some of that his own making and as such could be classed as pretty mentally unstable and vulnerable......and therefore susceptible to control and abuse by others. Especially if his formative years were spent being in a controlled environment (prison) with everyone else (prison guards) doing everything for you (rehabilitation back into society is also truly shocking coming out of the prison system).

The same as is being argued for her could be true for him. Shit childhood, shit adolescence of her own making by joining a cult who may or may not have controlled her, mental health issues as a result etc etc.

I am starting to think that these two entirely damaged individuals came together and bonded over their shit circumstances. Probably became trauma bonded to one another, possibly both abusive and controlling at times, not necessarily one being dominant over the other. Sometimes it isn't as black and white as one being the abuser and the other abused, it is just a straight up toxic relationship where they are both as bad as each other (although that doesn't make one person or the other more morally right either).

Regardless she is in a stronger position to come across as a mentally unwell female with a troubled childhood given there are more men than women in DV and controlling relationships. Agree that the money and status thing is a moot point too, having been the sole earner and the victim in an abusive relationship. If anything he would use my earning as a stick to beat me with, take money by using my card and tell everyone I was financially abusing him by not giving him money (which I did so he would have to get a job).
 
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I just checked out that ‘Rishi Sunak’s private GP’ account from the last thread - it reads like a terrible fan fiction from someone desperate for attention. It’s complete drivel, there’s no way in hell anyone who went to school with her would express themselves like that. Somehow it was better than their other tweets though.
Yeah felt deeply uncomfortable at that thread being shared tbh, the bit re her attraction to Mark Gordon used racist tropes/typical fetishisation of black men. Bit grim really. Twitter is full of nutters looking for attention tho.
 
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