Constance Marten and Mark Gordon Case #3

[Emsie]

If she has had other children taken off her, social services can't be expected to monitor her every move to see if she falls pregnant again. They don't have the resources for that at all. What they usually rely on is a birth mother presenting for medical care whilst pregnant which would flag on their records.
I cant see how social services should he expected to proactively stop this.
What should happen is constance presents for medical care and social services work with her to plan for baby's arrival in the hope that she can keep the baby. But in order for that to happen the birth mother would need to acknowledge their failings and clearly constance wasn't prepared to do this.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

People tend to not have too many warm and fuzzy feelings towards people who cause the death of a tiny baby and then leave her body to rot in a carrier bag. Yes, yes, they've not been found guilty yet etc.

I think, for many, the endless excuse making for their sickening behaviour is even more offensive.

I haven’t said anything about warm and fuzzy feelings. Far from it.

I haven’t made assumptions based on unknown information, unlike what you just did with your post and the comment about why the baby was where she was.

I’m not making excuses for them, and I never have done. I’ve said previously that they may well be responsible for their baby’s death. It’s highly likely that her death could have been avoided. That is a tragedy for everyone involved.

What I’ve also said is that it might not be as black and white as some people may think.

That’s not making excuses.

What I will make no apology for - in this situation or any other - is being clear that mental illness can mean that a person is not always in control of their thoughts or actions.

We don’t know the situation here, so I’m not saying it’s relevant, but it’s a consideration.

Blaming anyone for something out of their control due to poor mental health is not okay, and there have been posts saying along the lines of ‘I don’t care what’s wrong with them, they deserve xyz’. How is that okay?

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I don’t know what you mean

Yes sorry edited so nobody would ever know

The new typo is even funnier I almost woke my sleeping child by laughing

 

[Hyacinthsquash]

I’ll never believe Constance had any motherly instincts. No mother can put their newborn baby in that position, carrying it in a plastic bag, living in the open elements and not seeking any medical intervention. There is no way that baby was thriving/full health. They could have left her on any doorstep, any shop, any public place and she would have been taken care of. But they chose to keep her selfishly. She claims she wanted to give her a burial but she could have done that, could have shown her some slight dignity even if it was a burial in a forest. But she was thrown under rubbish.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

haha it was me that did the Letby wiki. Not sure I’d call myself a legend but I’ll take it

I’ve been lurking here but not sure I can get so invested this time though. Letby’s trial lasting 10 months was intense!

Don’t you own tattle

 

[Dogmuck]

Some people with severe Mental Illnesses don't accept their diagnosis so continue with their life to the extent that they can. Equally, other people won't listen to loved ones' recommendations or requests for them to go and seek help (diagnosis).

@Dogmuck If that was the case for CM, especially the former, wouldn't that make him more responsible than her? Especially, if she's been treated or medicated as appropriate since their arrest.

Would how they've behaved since being separated indicate much?

sorry didn’t see this as tanning my sad old cows hide on my holiday.


Both of their medical history’s will have been sought by their counsel but from the moment they were arrested and put into custody they will have had an assessment. If either have any history of mental illness and are on or need medication this will have been provided and if there are any serious concerns then they will be getting the treatment, attention and care they need. I can’t say for sure but if there were serious concerns about their mental health then they wouldn’t be kept in police custody they would be hospitalised. Right at this moment in time they are considered innocent for the purpose of law. This is a high profile case. You can be damn sure that the police will be making every effort to ensure they do the right thing by them in respect of medical treatment, the last thing the police want is CMs big time legal team using excuses of mistreatment to get bail or derail the proceedings. If someone refuses medical help and they have been assessed by Doctors as needing it, be that on the inside or outside, they would be forced, under the Mental Health Act, also know as being sectioned, to be hospitalised.

How they have behaved since they were separated wouldn’t really matter unless it relates to the crime (from a legal stand point that is). When I say that I mean, have they cooperated with the police? That would have a bearing on things purely because ultimately showing remorse is important and cooperating with the police is seen as a positive act. Conversely, if they hadn’t it could be implied that they have no remorse and this could be used as an adverse factor by prosecutors/judge. If you mean if they have been showing signs of MH issues then this may form part of their mitigation and pre-sentencing report and again like I said above they’d be getting help.

Fun fact, 9 out of 10 prisoners have at least one mental health or substance abuse condition. It doesn’t negate a crime. This pair may have MH issues, I don’t know, but on a scale of your average criminal to your Broadmoor inmates (Peter Sutcliffe et al), I think they are nearer the former than the latter. This pair aren’t serial killers, they are being charged with gross negligence manslaughter. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, they didn’t “intend” to kill their child, if that was the case they would have been charged with murder. They thought they could get away with this and had their car not set on fire maybe they would have. I think what you’ve got here is a pair of chancer with many more advantages and privileges than your average criminals. I don’t believe their MH is any worse than an average criminal, possibly less, maybe Marks is worse than hers given his history. I don’t believe their MH will save them, it may be a factor in their defence but it’s not going to absolve them, there is no denying they were negligent. As has been said, they were smart enough to hide the pregnancy, buy a car, go on the run. I genuinely think they didn’t realise the magnitude of their crime and believed they could probably ride this out. I don’t think many criminals think further than their desire for something, be that stealing, selling drugs, growing weed, the cognitive dissonance is real.

soz long
X

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I don’t know how more grossly negligent you can be than to allow a baby, who clearly lived for some time, to die without getting help.
The poor mother who recently abandoned her newborn baby at least had the decency and concern to leave her in a busy place where she would be found. Unlike this pair.
I don’t think a jury will take kindly to a toff and her rapist boyfriend allowing their baby to die when being urged by the whole nation to hand themselves in.

 

[DellaC]

I don't know what I've missed, I havent seen anything about hanging them?

It's a mute point anyway in our civilised society, is it not?

I think they should be punished for the death of their child and if that makes me a gammon then oink oink but they can only be punished as far as the law will allow them to be punished. I hope the rest of their life is a misery. I can't help that, I just do.

Some people are more sympathetic to mental illness than others, I genuinely don't see it as an excuse or a reason for the way this baby's life has ended. If you do then fair play to you, your heart is good and your lifes experiences have led you to where you are. Given what I know know but there's not one person on this thread that 100% knows about the mental state of either of them. There also seems to be more sympathy afforded to her mental state than his. They were in it together it seems to me but we shall all wait and see.

Just like we don't know about CM and MGs mental health we don't know about posters MH needs or history on here.


Chill out darlings, its tattle not parliament

 

[Itchy of Itchington]

Yes, I think it’s possible (maybe exacerbated by their circumstances) and I also think it’s going to be difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn’t.

She said she hadn’t slept properly in a few days, and fell asleep sitting up. Lots of new parents have done that.

Infant death due to accidental smothering is not the same as SIDS. Overlaying is the other term used for it and it's sadly not uncommon in parents who use drink or drugs. These deaths can be subject to case reviews where there are already concerns about welfare of the child.
SIDS is what used to be called cot death where the baby died whilst sleeping and there's no identifiable cause such as smothering/illness/sudden Medical episode

 

[EllsBellsWells]

People tend to not have too many warm and fuzzy feelings towards people who cause the death of a tiny baby and then leave her body to rot in a carrier bag. Yes, yes, they've not been found guilty yet etc.

I think, for many, the endless excuse making for their sickening behaviour is even more offensive.

STOP TRYING TO SHUT DOWN THE DISCUSSION

If you don’t want to be a part of it, that’s absolutely fine. There’s a million other threads on here for you to peruse. Nobody is making excuses for anyone and it’s boring to see you repeatedly saying that. We are all on Tattle to discuss and speculate. If you don’t like it then you don’t have to come on here.

 

[Allmyownopinion]

They’ve destroyed the lives of 4 children & killed one & they’ll only serve a couple of years in prison for doing so, this county’s justice system stinks! Even the children who were saved from them will be traumatised for life, god knows if they’ll have medical issues such as FAS as they both look like drug users, but they’ll certainly have mental trauma from neglect & abuse which you never truly recover from even with a new family. They’re both utterly repulsive & evil I can’t look at their disgusting faces. Life in prison isn’t long enough.

 

[MistyWindows]

I disagree. I think if they were both black or both white or she was black and he was white the story would be the same.

I’m sorry but it absolutely would not.
Without going too far into all the systematic racism in this country and why it would be extremely unlikely that a black person would be in a position as privileged as CM, the media is generally much less interested in reporting missing POCs.
I think his race is relevant in this case because, regardless of our own views and beliefs, I would bet that it effected her relationships with family and peers.
Anyway, you’re entitled to your opinion. I just disagree that we should be policing each other into not mentioning race in this case.

Anyway @Dogmuck I agree! I would love to know how they met and who those kids are in her photos.
I do think that if CM’s da couldn’t afford such a swanky lawyer, or if her family were more likely to want/need money then we would have had a lot more leaks and stories about her and their relationship.

 

[Aberscot]

Mr Little has added that the body of Marten and Gordon's baby was left "as if it was refuse".

He said: "After the baby had died the defendants did not hand themselves in but instead remained off-grid and trying to hide, leaving the body of their dead baby in a shopping bag covered in rubbish, as if she was refuse, and left in a disused shed."

Bastards, why couldn’t they have given her some dignity even in death

 

[Airhead93]

I can’t follow live but catching up here and just read on the bbc website

The prosecutor said the couple, who have four other children, "put their relationship and their view of life before the life of a little baby girl".

Are those four children together or individually they have a total of four between them?

Just googled and found out that baby Victoria is there 5th child together

 

[rosieflowers]

I think that despite all the increased understanding and awareness of mental illness that's come about in the last decade or so, something that people are still understandably uncomfortable talking about is that people with severe mental illness - and I'm not talking about your average case of depression here - can be very difficult to be around and can make relationships difficult sometimes to the point of becoming impossible.

The statements from CM's parents spoke volumes on this, about how difficult and hurtful her behaviour has probably been since 2016. I think that's why I am inclined to believe her actions are so attributable to untreated mental illness, because many people have come out and said how kind, gregarious, interesting a person she was before.

I think what people are going to find difficult to understand about this case also is that being classed as vulnerable doesn't mean you are a meek mouse of a person that has no say/ doesn't actively make choices in their life. By all accounts CM has a very strong and robust character both before and after meeting MG and I think people will find it difficult to reconcile that with a diagnosis of a lack of capacity through severe mental illness and/ or coercive control

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

To say that you’re not sympathetic to mental illness is no different than saying you’re not sympathetic towards cancer.
The reaction to that would (rightly) be widespread outcry.

Maybe that’s why it feels to some like mental health gets talked about a lot - because it needs to be. Because there’s still such ignorance about it.


N.B. I deliberately haven’t directed this post at anyone in particular, because it’s not aimed at any one person. There are many to whom it applies over the last two full threads.

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

I’ve requested a wiki so we can easily keep the daily reporting updates together

 

[uberoblique]

From experience, a mother who had had numerous children removed presented in labour at the hospital and expected to be able to just leave post the birth. But it had been flagged on her medical notes that any presentation of a pregnancy needed to inform social services. The baby needed special care so she couldn’t just walk out with baby but when baby was ready to be discharged the emergency foster parents turned up.

I’m presuming something similar would have happened regarding Constance. And she possibly knew that she couldn’t present in a hospital at any point as the authorities would be notified. The only reason they came to media attention was leaving the scene of a burning car and leaving their passports behind in the rush to leave. If that hadn’t have happened they could have kept moving safely to warm places rather than the desperate measures they took to not be found. They were determined not to be detected.

The woman opposite me on the post natal ward was in this situation. I couldn’t work out why she was still there 5 days after giving birth when her baby seemed absolutely fine. She ignored it except to give it a bottle every now and then, whinging that the hospital wouldn’t give her free formula.

It was only when a nurse suggested she go for a walk and they’d take care of the baby that I twigged as she kicked off about them taking her baby. We pieced together from her bellowed conversations on the phone that this was her 5th child and none were in her care. Later that day, her baby daddy turned up and pinned her up against my curtains and threatened to hit her. Weirdly her mum turned up and was not at all fazed by any of this!

 

[InTheDollsHouse]

You might aswell have tagged me in it chuck

I have genuine sympathies for people with Mental Illness. Genuine mental illness that is.

I don't have much sympathy for people who neglect their children or cause their children harm.

It's a conflict.

There have been so many posts dismissing the extremes of mental illness. Whether or not it is relevant in this case - for CM or MG - some of the things that have been said have been far from sympathetic.

Yes, your post reminded me, but I didn’t tag you because I wasn’t aiming it at you

I don't have any sympathy for people who neglect their children or cause their children harm.

I do have exceptionally strong feelings about those who fake or exaggerate mental illness for their own gain (bet you’d never have guessed that ) and I also feel strongly about people (in general, not just here in these threads) dismissing mental illness without even attempting to understand.

I get it. I really do.

4 1/2 years ago I wouldn’t have been able to comprehend the absolutely catastrophic and life-altering effects that single a traumatic event can have on a life, or on a brain. Let alone multiple traumas, or combined with a pre-existing mental health condition.

I like to think I’d have tried to understand, but I know now I couldn’t possibly have done. Not completely.

But what’s the Maya Angelou quote?

‘Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.’

Surely that’s what these threads are for? Everyone bringing something else to them, different views and opinions, so we can all discuss our views and expand our knowledge, and hopefully we can all do better.

 

[Dogmuck]

Her very expensive, top flight barrister, can’t remember his name, said in a statement he was ‘putting on notice’ that he would be applying for bail for CM.
He’s not representing MG.

Yeah, you’d always say that out loud, it’s bluster to sew doubt that she’s innocent or a victim. He can apply but, unless there’s a really big piece of information we are missing, like she was held at gunpoint the entire time (which she blew a hole in when she reached for him and blew kisses at the mags), no judge in this country would allow someone who has essentially been on the run from police and other authorities for months out before trial, she’s proven she won’t comply with requests and it’s easily argued she may not return to court for hearings. Best case scenario for her would be tag and house arrest but she’s of no fixed abode so where do you bail her to?. I’d defo apply for it for my client cos trust fund innit, get those fees clocked up.

I know this is OT but this just reminded me of a case I was doing where the defence had applied for bail and it was granted but he wasn’t able return to his home or any of his families so we had to find him a bail house (basically like halfway houses). For some reason the only one available was in Burnley and the defendant said, nah I ain’t starting in Burnley it’s a proper shit hole, just put me back in prison

ETA- re diminished responsibility it’s only a partial defence to murder and the burden is on the defence to prove it. I don’t think it’s worth it. I think they would be better going for manslaughter and mitigate, Can’t remember what they were charged with? Think it is manslaughter right?