Children or No Children?

[jackolantern]

IMO the reason the CF thread gets flack is because alot of the comments come across as outright hateful towards parents as opposed to supportive towards those who aren't, which surely was the aim? I genuinely believe most people don't care whether or not you want/have kids. Yeah there will always be judgemental pricks, but as is with everything in life. I think it's unfair to say the threads for parents are full of complaining, again it's supposed to be there as a support network so there is going to be posts about our stresses to vent (but there's a duck ton saying how much we love our babies too - bit selective not acknowledging this?). I've seen hideous comments on the CF thread about disabled children (including from people who supposedly work with children?!), women's bodies being ruined and the like. Like, yes if you don't want kids for those reasons, it's absolutely your choice and better you don't tbh, but you don't need to extend the criticism to OTHER people's children and OTHER women's bodies. I don't like football, so I don't spend my time lurking in a space saying how much I hate it and criticising everyone else who likes y'know. I will agree those in the parent threads probably get a little hacked off from time to time but once you're a parent having someone be so hateful towards your children is bleeping rotten honestly. I don't think that can be compared to making a joke about cards from a houseplant.

Hopefully this thread will be a happy medium. People from both sides should be supported in their choices.

Have kids, don't. Neither changes your worth as a person and we all have more to offer than that status.

 

[LaBlonde]

Parents aren’t allowed on the thread to join in on any banter/suggestions (holidays etc.), so I don’t think there is a chance to have an open or equal discussion there, which is a shame, you’re absolutely right!

Having said that, I do think there should be a place for such extreme views and they should just stay there

I think this thread is really nice and I’m always happy to discuss experiences and listen to others- so it’s nice this has opened up for both sides so I suppose we can the discussion here!

i think that’s fair and i fully get, as parents, that barriers have been put up on you engaging with us. i think, like i said above, we both get protective of our own lives (if that even makes sense!) so we get wary of parents coming into our space in the same way that you guys understandably feel comments cross the line.

i like that we each have our own safe spaces but equally i do also think we could have open and honest chats with each other, so it’s nice if we’ll be able to do that here! (an olive branch extended!)

i did find your post really interesting as i do think that on the fence or undecided folk can feel a little left out and it’s really valuable to read how your viewpoint (and the other posts above) changed. it’s a useful thread that was really needed i think

@jackolantern - sorry for tagging you in here rather than quoting your post but also wanted to address that to you too.

 

[Sky Sports Main Event]

That's good to hear. Glad to see this thread as I definitely am on the fence and to be honest,reading the childfree thread, does put me more in the 'no children' camp. The thing is, it is difficult to hear different perspectives, as the threads for people with children either focus on complaining about how hard it is and the different issues with pregnancy and then parenthood, which really doesn't sell it and where people do say positive things it's often 'yes I'm completely exhausted, but it's so worth it', without talking about practical considerations and balanced view. Online it seems very much "having children is awful" Vs "having children is the only worthwhile thing in life"

I think it is hard to get a balanced view, as there are no facts or evidence based research you can do, it's all opinion and I suppose you just have to figure out whose opinions you think are more in line with your values! And try and avoid the extremist views on both sides!

 

[Looboo]

I needed this thread! Like others I lurk in the CF thread but I’m still undecided (although I would definitely say I’m currently child free by choice and I’m probably 75% leaning more towards not wanting kids than wanting them).

Most of my issues with having kids come from the wider picture rather than me personally. I do think I could look after and love a child and my partner would make a great parent too.

The things that really put me off are climate change, the state of the country/world and the fact that so many people (mainly young people) seem to struggle these days with things like mental health, careers, gender, etc…

Like I don’t feel good about bringing a child into all that. And that’s without thinking about the possibility they could be disabled or poorly and require extra care and maybe not have a nice life.

Be interested to hear other views on this kind of thing!

 

[jackolantern]

The things that really put me off are climate change, the state of the country/world and the fact that so many people (mainly young people) seem to struggle these days with things like mental health, careers, gender, etc…

Like I don’t feel good about bringing a child into all that. And that’s without thinking about the possibility they could be disabled or poorly and require extra care and maybe not have a nice life.

Be interested to hear other views on this kind of thing!

Regarding your first point, both me and my OH struggled with this because we both studied Conservation Biology so are plenty aware of the state of the world, however, from our perspective, we both feel we live more 'green' or 'sustainably' than your average Joe and that having a modest amount of children in was a reasonable thing to do. I think all you can do in life is your bit and if you are doing that, I don't think you should punish yourself further because others don't. I.e. we consume resources responsibly, give back where we can and have a child we can support. I think if you do all that, you aren't doing anything wrong. Although I appreciate that's just our take and others won't agree. I will say though - the world can support all of us even with this ridiculous population if people aren't greedy with consumables and replenish what they use.

As far as disabilities, there seems to be this massive misnomer that disabled kids don't have good lives? That's the rarity not the norm. Plus most 'abled' folk have MH struggles these days, that's not meant to scare you, just the reality that for the most part your physical or mental abilities don't automatically dictate your fulfilment in life. I'd actually argue many disabled folk I've met are even happier.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I think the disabilities discussion is a really interesting tbf. I saw a tiktoker recently who had multiple children, 2 of which were suffering with cystic fibrosis. I just thought it was really shocking, like if you know that you and your husband are both carriers of the gene because you have already produced a kid with CF, why tf would you then have another one? You can have prenatal testing if you are both carriers to find out if your baby is homozygous as well, yet instead they chose to just go ahead and have another little boy fully knowing he will suffer a short and very painful life.
I myself am a cystic fibrosis gene carrier (it’s recessive so you need two copies in order to have the disease and luckily my partner doesn’t have it so we have no chance of having a CF baby anyway), however you can still suffer symptoms of CF even if you’re just a carrier. Luckily I haven’t experienced any symptoms but my mum has also got the gene and suffers with both respiratory issues and repeated pancreatitis. I would personally feel really guilty if I knowingly passed the gene onto my kid and they ended up suffering because of it.

That’s just one example though of a particularly horrible and incurable genetic disease, however I find some of the discussion (which at times borders on eugenics) around not wanting kids with something like down syndrome or autism really quite disturbing and scary.

 

[Ingognito.Queen]

I think the disabilities discussion is a really interesting tbf. I saw a tiktoker recently who had multiple children, 2 of which were suffering with cystic fibrosis. I just thought it was really shocking, like if you know that you and your husband are both carriers of the gene because you have already produced a kid with CF, why tf would you then have another one? You can have prenatal testing if you are both carriers to find out if your baby is homozygous as well, yet instead they chose to just go ahead and have another little boy fully knowing he will suffer a short and very painful life.
I myself am a cystic fibrosis gene carrier (it’s recessive so you need two copies in order to have the disease and luckily my partner doesn’t have it so we have no chance of having a CF baby anyway), however you can still suffer symptoms of CF even if you’re just a carrier. Luckily I haven’t experienced any symptoms but my mum has also got the gene and suffers with both respiratory issues and repeated pancreatitis. I would personally feel really guilty if I knowingly passed the gene onto my kid and they ended up suffering because of it.

Such an interesting discussion.

That’s just one example though of a particularly horrible and incurable genetic disease, however I find some of the discussion (which at times borders on eugenics) around not wanting kids with something like down syndrome or autism really quite disturbing and scary.

Disturbing/scary in what way?

 

[Looboo]

Regarding your first point, both me and my OH struggled with this because we both studied Conservation Biology so are plenty aware of the state of the world, however, from our perspective, we both feel we live more 'green' or 'sustainably' than your average Joe and that having a modest amount of children in was a reasonable thing to do. I think all you can do in life is your bit and if you are doing that, I don't think you should punish yourself further because others don't. I.e. we consume resources responsibly, give back where we can and have a child we can support. I think if you do all that, you aren't doing anything wrong. Although I appreciate that's just our take and others won't agree. I will say though - the world can support all of us even with this ridiculous population if people aren't greedy with consumables and replenish what they use.

As far as disabilities, there seems to be this massive misnomer that disabled kids don't have good lives? That's the rarity not the norm. Plus most 'abled' folk have MH struggles these days, that's not meant to scare you, just the reality that for the most part your physical or mental abilities don't automatically dictate your fulfilment in life. I'd actually argue many disabled folk I've met are even happier.

Thanks for your input - about the cc stuff I do agree that I should be able to have a child if I want one given that I’m pretty environmental in a lot of other ways and if other people can have kids then why can’t I etc.

I think I meant more like I worry about what kind of a world the child would grow up in that worries me - and a big part of that is climate change.

Regarding disabilities I completely get what you’re saying and I’d certainly always like to hope that most people are able to live happy life whether disabled or not, and also fully get that plenty of people have mental health problems regardless (and Im probably wording everything on this topic really badly!) but I guess it’s just another consideration I have really. I probably worry more about big illnesses that can have a massive impact on life.

 

[LaBlonde]

I think the disabilities discussion is a really interesting tbf. I saw a tiktoker recently who had multiple children, 2 of which were suffering with cystic fibrosis. I just thought it was really shocking, like if you know that you and your husband are both carriers of the gene because you have already produced a kid with CF, why tf would you then have another one? You can have prenatal testing if you are both carriers to find out if your baby is homozygous as well, yet instead they chose to just go ahead and have another little boy fully knowing he will suffer a short and very painful life.
I myself am a cystic fibrosis gene carrier (it’s recessive so you need two copies in order to have the disease and luckily my partner doesn’t have it so we have no chance of having a CF baby anyway), however you can still suffer symptoms of CF even if you’re just a carrier. Luckily I haven’t experienced any symptoms but my mum has also got the gene and suffers with both respiratory issues and repeated pancreatitis. I would personally feel really guilty if I knowingly passed the gene onto my kid and they ended up suffering because of it.

That’s just one example though of a particularly horrible and incurable genetic disease, however I find some of the discussion (which at times borders on eugenics) around not wanting kids with something like down syndrome or autism really quite disturbing and scary.

i think, for me personally, it’s all of this and also a deep fear of what would happen to that child if/when i pass away (in terms of more severe or aggressive diseases that come with extreme needs for the child). i have elderly neighbours with one son going through this right now and it breaks my heart to watch them come to the realisation that they can no longer care for him as they used to and that he can’t realistically continue living with them. like you said, it is also considering the child’s quality of life in some cases.

 

[Looboo]

i think, for me personally, it’s more a deep fear of what would happen to that child if/when i pass away (in terms of more severe or aggressive diseases that come with extreme needs for the child). i have elderly neighbours with one son going through this right now and it breaks my heart to watch them come to the realisation that they can no longer care for him as they used to. like you said, it is also considering the child’s quality of life in some cases.

That’s it for me too - it’s not that I’d have an issue with looking after the child it’s that I’d worry about them - both general quality of life and what would happen if I wasn’t there. Of course I’m generalizing a lot and it would depend on the level of support needed.

 

[LaBlonde]

That’s it for me too - it’s not that I’d have an issue with looking after the child it’s that I’d worry about them - both general quality of life and what would happen if I wasn’t there. Of course I’m generalizing a lot and it would depend on the level of support needed.

oh same! this is extremely general and obviously influenced by the fact that i’m witnessing a very sad case of it right now - i have pretty bad anxiety and ocd too, which i think would also amp up into complete mania about not being able to care for a/my child in the way they needed or deserved. there’s lots of variables obviously, but i think i know that i (as an individual) would struggle. especially with how poor some aspects of social care and help is right now. this is, as said in the original post, only for particularly severe needs etc.

 

[Deeznutslol]

Disturbing/scary in what way?

Well, I think a lot of the discussion I’ve seen about disabled people (down syndrome in particular) seems to come from a place of genuine disgust for them. Like, I’ve heard and seen certain comments which sort of suggest that they’d prefer that disabled people just didn’t exist in the world altogether

 

[Looboo]

oh same! this is extremely general and obviously influenced by the fact that i’m witnessing a very sad case of it right now - i have pretty bad anxiety and ocd too, which i think would also amp up into complete mania about not being able to care for a/my child in the way they needed or deserved. there’s lots of variables obviously, but i think i know that i (as an individual) would struggle. especially with how poor some aspects of social care and help is right now. this is, as said in the original post, only for particularly severe needs etc.

I have anxiety and worry a lot too which is what makes me think I’d struggle with this.

 

[emm]

Well, I think a lot of the discussion I’ve seen about disabled people (down syndrome in particular) seems to come from a place of genuine disgust for them. Like, I’ve heard and seen certain comments which sort of suggest that they’d prefer that disabled people just didn’t exist in the world altogether

I haven't seen anyone in the thread say anything like that, what has been said is that not everyone, however maternal or caring they are, would be capable of looking after a seriously disabled child, many people on the thread (myself included) have given personal examples of exactly this happening

 

[Mamacita]

I think it is hard to get a balanced view, as there are no facts or evidence based research you can do, it's all opinion and I suppose you just have to figure out whose opinions you think are more in line with your values! And try and avoid the extremist views on both sides!

That's what I mean though! It is hard to avoid the extreme views because that's mostly what people tend to share online. Not many people will go online and talk about them having a good balanced day with their child. They will go on to either moan about or talk about how much they love their child

Also all this is such a controversial topic for people that it brings a lot of clicks and comments. I've noticed so many articles recently about related things, e.g.:

- about people refusing to give up their plane seat for a child
- about rebel Wilson going to a party a week after her child was born
- women going back to work quickly or never going back to work after having a child

Etc. Etc. It all works even more to divide everyone and sounds like everyone has an opinion about what people do regarding children. So much pressure from everywhere

 

[Ingognito.Queen]

Well, I think a lot of the discussion I’ve seen about disabled people (down syndrome in particular) seems to come from a place of genuine disgust for them. Like, I’ve heard and seen certain comments which sort of suggest that they’d prefer that disabled people just didn’t exist in the world altogether

Ugh, really? How sad.

Anyone who thinks/expresses these views clearly don't have people with down syndrome in their lives who are some of the most amazing, affectionate, special people.

 

[Jellybean093]

Just to lighten to mood a little…

CF who get the hump about people constantly asking if they’re going to have children, I can confirm on multiple occasions when I am going to stop having children

I guess we have more in common than not

 

[Deeznutslol]

I haven't seen anyone in the thread say anything like that, what has been said is that not everyone, however maternal or caring they are, would be capable of looking after a seriously disabled child, many people on the thread (myself included) have given personal examples of exactly this happening

Yes but as I said before, I’m not talking about the thread on here as I’ve never been on it!
I’m talking about stuff I’ve seen on twitter by child free advocators

 

[Caffeine Fiend]

Im not childfree, I have 2 children and it is by far the hardest part of my life. I dont regret having them, I'd not change the fact I had them. The older they get the more I enjoy being a parent. I love that they are little people/young adults now and we can enjoy things together. I really struggled with babyhood.

I am crushed by the weight of others expectations though, that my children should just 'behave' and that their behaviour is a direct correlation to my input as a parent.

If you have time on your side and youre undecided them definitely take the time to try and decide.

I can completely see why people would choose to stay childfree. Looks fab to me, despite the fact I wouldnt change my decision.

I do keep my kids separate from my childfree friends. I wouldnt dream of them tagging along for a lunch out or whatever. absolutely not.


Edit - just saw the disability discussion. I have one neuro diverse child and it is challenging every single day. Very stressful.

 

[LaBlonde]

I have anxiety and worry a lot too which is what makes me think I’d struggle with this.

oh i hear you!! i think the main thing that tipped me over into childfree is my ocd - i have a lot of traits and intrusions that just wouldn’t make having a child a good experience for me. or for them tbh! there are obviously many good points but i’m not sure if my anxiety would allow me to enjoy it, if that makes sense i would be on edge all the time
---

I haven't seen anyone in the thread say anything like that, what has been said is that not everyone, however maternal or caring they are, would be capable of looking after a seriously disabled child, many people on the thread (myself included) have given personal examples of exactly this happening

tbf i don’t think they’re referring to ours - they mentioned earlier having seen some awful stuff on twitter.

edit: sorry @Deeznutslol just saw you responded!