Anti Conspiracy Theories #6 wakey, wakey!

[monga]

A time when we know how to treat it and understand more about it, also as with most viruses its now milder which is good. The issues in A&E/hospitals and excess deaths aren't related to covid as much as lockdown- but only in part. There are many issues and the government has known for many years and never bothered doing anything about it.

I know that ,the only thing lockdowns have achieved is nobody can get treatment, the government solution is to buy care beds to move bed blockers to , and suggest going private if you’re desperate.
The A&E’s were running out of basic oxygen supplies a couple of days ago so understanding how to treat covid isn’t having much affect if you can’t get access to the basic treatments to begin with.

 

[monga]

I’m sorry but I don’t see how you can blame lockdowns that happened literally 2/3 years for
the current state of the NHS. Covid hasn’t helped matters but it has been declining well before any of this happened. There are so many factors that have influenced the current state of things.

Well our two favourite scientists are blaming it too it’s stands to reason the NHS would face this kind of pressure when there’s 3 yrs of delayed treatment.

 

[Maccat123]

Well our two favourite scientists are blaming it too it’s stands to reason the NHS would face this kind of pressure when there’s 3 yrs of delayed treatment.

I don’t particularly agree with them and think it’s a fairly simplistic view to take. I’m not saying it doesn’t have an impact but it’s not the sole reason. I think it’s far more nuanced than we can discuss on a forum like this to be honest.

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

Sports journalist Grant Wahl collapsed at the Argentina-Netherlands match and sadly died. His death was used by people online to spread disinformation and blame the Covid-19 vaccine. His wife Dr. Céline Gounder received hate and abuse online. She is an infectious disease physician and epidemiologist.

Her husband’s autopsy was carried out at New York City Office of Chief Medical Examiner, where staff are some of the world’s top pathologists/forensic scientists. Prelim results showed that Grant’s aorta had ruptured.

This article by his wife, Dr. Céline Gounder is an interesting read and she touches upon Damar Hamlin and how opportunists used the same playbook to blame his cardiac arrest on the Covid-19 vaccines.

Opinion | Grant Wahl Was a Loving Husband. I Will Always Protect His Legacy. (Published 2023)

Anti-vaccine harassment cannot stand.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Ensay]

I've noticed it's not just this place where those who aren't against the vaccines have given up arguing with those who are.

I was sent an anti vaxx tweet by a friend yesterday with a message about how nuts it was. I read it, but also read the replies and, after scrolling through at least 100, I didn't spot a single one that challenged said tweet. It used to be more balanced, but it's clear people aren't engaging now, so it was just one massive echo chamber.

I'm not blaming people for not replying, as I'm the same given how draining it gets having the same arguments and hearing the same strawman reasoning - I just thought it was quite interesting and perhaps colours the judgement of anti vaxxers. After all, they may well assume that the lack of opposition to their claims is because people agree with them.

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

I've noticed it's not just this place where those who aren't against the vaccines have given up arguing with those who are.

I was sent an anti vaxx tweet by a friend yesterday with a message about how nuts it was. I read it, but also read the replies and, after scrolling through at least 100, I didn't spot a single one that challenged said tweet. It used to be more balanced, but it's clear people aren't engaging now, so it was just one massive echo chamber.

I'm not blaming people for not replying, as I'm the same given how draining it gets having the same arguments and hearing the same strawman reasoning - I just thought it was quite interesting and perhaps colours the judgement of anti vaxxers. After all, they may well assume that the lack of opposition to their claims is because people agree with them.

This strikes a chord, Ensay. It's disappointing seeing/hearing the same old cocksure, repetitive arguments prolifically bouncing back and forth on here or on twitter, where it's evident posters, and some repliers too, aren't interested in reasoned engagement or evidence-based info, just in being seen and being right. But I doubt the loud minority clamouring against the covid vaccine on various fora online is indicative of the general popuation's feelings.
(edited for typo)

 

[Ensay]

Andrew Bridgen's claims fact checked:

Andrew Bridgen: What has suspended MP said about vaccines?

The Conservative MP has been suspended after a tweet comparing Covid vaccine side effects to the Holocaust.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

Andrew Bridgen's claims fact checked:

Andrew Bridgen: What has suspended MP said about vaccines?

The Conservative MP has been suspended after a tweet comparing Covid vaccine side effects to the Holocaust.

www.bbc.co.uk

People already up in arms about him being suspended! I checked his Twitter account and no surprise to the type of things he posts and retweets about.

#Holocaust, #Nuremberg2 and #Andrew Bridgen are trending on Twitter.

 

[Ensay]

People already up in arms about him being suspended! I checked his Twitter account and no surprise to the type of things he posts and retweets about.

#Holocaust, #Nuremberg2 and #Andrew Bridgen are trending on Twitter.

View attachment 1875032

Yeah his tweets are bizarre for an MP. How he didn't think the Holocaust comparison wasn't in incredibly poor taste is beyond me. Strange guy.

 

[Prefrontalmedialcortex]

Yeah his tweets are bizarre for an MP. How he didn't think the Holocaust comparison wasn't in incredibly poor taste is beyond me. Strange guy.

Very bizzare. Even more bizzare is the people that support him and his claims around the Covid vaccine and other stuff he posts.

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

Makes for troubling reading, especially former BNP members at the forefront of some of the recent freedom, home-schooling and anti-vaccine movements: (edited, typo)

‘I was wrong’: how Covid conspiracies became a gateway to extreme views

Some Covid deniers have regrets, but others have joined more extremist hate movements

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ensay]

Makes for troubling reading, especially former BNP members at the forefront of some of the recent freedom, home-schooling and anti-vaccine movements: (edited, typo)

‘I was wrong’: how Covid conspiracies became a gateway to extreme views

Some Covid deniers have regrets, but others have joined more extremist hate movements

www.theguardian.com

Interesting article and quite apt considering some of them mock the very idea that being anti vaccine is classed as a conspiracy theory when, as this clearly shows, it's often the gateway to other conspiracy theories. I mean, you only have to look at the CT and vaccine threads here to see there's clearly a link. I doubt there are many that only stick to one thread, but yeah carry on taking the piss that there's a link.

The article shows anti vaccine views are often the first step. I suppose they feel slightly alienated and then naturally want to seek out people who share their anti vaccination views and some of those people will be more into CTs and hence introduce them to more - through YouTube videos, Twitter messages, articles to blogs or sites that appear genuine but are often a front for CTs (I linked an example here recently). Obviously I'm not suggesting that all anti vaccine people end up turning to extremist views.

There's definitely a massive amount of hypocrisy, though. Here are a few examples (they're made up quotes by the way, it's just easier to illustrate. They're very much based on the many comments I've read all over the internet, though.):

- "You can't make me wear a mask! It should be solely my choice, I can say I'm exempt and no one should challenge me."
- "I still see lots of people wearing masks. They don't work - they should take them off."

- "No one should make me take any vaccine - my body, my choice - and no one should criticise me for exercising my freedom of choice."
- "I can't believe people are still taking vaccines. None of them are needed or safe, they should be banned."

- "They take the piss out of us because they don't understand and they're being defensive. They can't be happy if they're taking the piss."
- "Lol, trust the science , the sheep are so stupid. "

So they want the freedom to make their own decisions and don't want to be criticised for those choices (which is fine) but they think it's fine to tell other people they're wrong when those people exercise their own freedom of choice and make a difference decision to them (not fine).

 

[shadowcat5]

Interesting article and quite apt considering some of them mock the very idea that being anti vaccine is classed as a conspiracy theory when, as this clearly shows, it's often the gateway to other conspiracy theories. I mean, you only have to look at the CT and vaccine threads here to see there's clearly a link. I doubt there are many that only stick to one thread, but yeah carry on taking the piss that there's a link.

The article shows anti vaccine views are often the first step. I suppose they feel slightly alienated and then naturally want to seek out people who share their anti vaccination views and some of those people will be more into CTs and hence introduce them to more - through YouTube videos, Twitter messages, articles to blogs or sites that appear genuine but are often a front for CTs (I linked an example here recently). Obviously I'm not suggesting that all anti vaccine people end up turning to extremist views.

There's definitely a massive amount of hypocrisy, though. Here are a few examples (they're made up quotes by the way, it's just easier to illustrate. They're very much based on the many comments I've read all over the internet, though.):

- "You can't make me wear a mask! It should be solely my choice, I can say I'm exempt and no one should challenge me."
- "I still see lots of people wearing masks. They don't work - they should take them off."

- "No one should make me take any vaccine - my body, my choice - and no one should criticise me for exercising my freedom of choice."
- "I can't believe people are still taking vaccines. None of them are needed or safe, they should be banned."

- "They take the piss out of us because they don't understand and they're being defensive. They can't be happy if they're taking the piss."
- "Lol, trust the science , the sheep are so stupid. "

So they want the freedom to make their own decisions and don't want to be criticised for those choices (which is fine) but they think it's fine to tell other people they're wrong when those people exercise their own freedom of choice and make a difference decision to them (not fine).

I used to lurk on the vaccine thread and I feel like this was basically the entire thread.
It would be 'well I don't want it and I should have freedom to choose not to' okay fine. 3 comments later, 'if you want to get that tit injected into you then you're foolish/sheep etc.'

So which is it?

 

[caroleffinbaskin]

I find it frightening when people seek advice on important stuff such as whether to vaccinate their kids from anonymous randoms on an Internet forum.

 

[Maccat123]

Interesting article and quite apt considering some of them mock the very idea that being anti vaccine is classed as a conspiracy theory when, as this clearly shows, it's often the gateway to other conspiracy theories. I mean, you only have to look at the CT and vaccine threads here to see there's clearly a link. I doubt there are many that only stick to one thread, but yeah carry on taking the piss that there's a link.

The article shows anti vaccine views are often the first step. I suppose they feel slightly alienated and then naturally want to seek out people who share their anti vaccination views and some of those people will be more into CTs and hence introduce them to more - through YouTube videos, Twitter messages, articles to blogs or sites that appear genuine but are often a front for CTs (I linked an example here recently). Obviously I'm not suggesting that all anti vaccine people end up turning to extremist views.

There's definitely a massive amount of hypocrisy, though. Here are a few examples (they're made up quotes by the way, it's just easier to illustrate. They're very much based on the many comments I've read all over the internet, though.):

- "You can't make me wear a mask! It should be solely my choice, I can say I'm exempt and no one should challenge me."
- "I still see lots of people wearing masks. They don't work - they should take them off."

- "No one should make me take any vaccine - my body, my choice - and no one should criticise me for exercising my freedom of choice."
- "I can't believe people are still taking vaccines. None of them are needed or safe, they should be banned."

- "They take the piss out of us because they don't understand and they're being defensive. They can't be happy if they're taking the piss."
- "Lol, trust the science , the sheep are so stupid. "

So they want the freedom to make their own decisions and don't want to be criticised for those choices (which is fine) but they think it's fine to tell other people they're wrong when those people exercise their own freedom of choice and make a difference decision to them (not fine).

Yes it’s the hypocrisy that drives me mad. I also think there’s a difference between being critical or accepting that people have had some really bad experiences as a result of the vaccine and claiming that there is a depopulation agenda/WEF/scientists are all on the payroll of big pharma/something to do with 2030. However it appears that people who have doubts or concerns can easily find themselves exposed to the CT pipeline.

 

[shadowcat5]

I find it frightening when people seek advice on important stuff such as whether to vaccinate their kids from anonymous randoms on an Internet forum.

I'm going to sound like CT here (irony i know) but I do wonder if part of this whole thing started with the inaccessible health care in america. People started looking online for medical advice and solutions and they've ended up down a rabbit hole. Antivax imo seems to have began as an American thing. I am in my late twenties and I didn't know anyone who was unvaccinated (MMR etc.) as a kid. It just wasn't the norm. It seems to be a lot more prevalent now in the UK

 

[Maccat123]

I'm going to sound like CT here (irony i know) but I do wonder if part of this whole thing started with the inaccessible health care in america. People started looking online for medical advice and solutions and they've ended up down a rabbit hole. Antivax imo seems to have began as an American thing. I am in my late twenties and I didn't know anyone who was unvaccinated (MMR etc.) as a kid. It just wasn't the norm. It seems to be a lot more prevalent now in the UK

I’m going to have a read about all of this, that’s an interesting point! I just finished a book about the history of pandemics and there was definitely anti vaccine sentiment and the same misinterpretation of statistics as you see today in the 1970s USA.

I know my cousins (early 20s) definitely didn’t get an MMR vaccine when they were little. I’m not sure if they have them now but I know their Mum sadly got spooked by the Andrew Wakefield stuff.

 

[Ensay]

I find it frightening when people seek advice on important stuff such as whether to vaccinate their kids from anonymous randoms on an Internet forum.

Agreed. Though I think anyone 'seeking advice' in such a way has likely already made their mind up, they just want likeminded people to back their opinion.

 

[klarakluckbag]

I find it frightening when people seek advice on important stuff such as whether to vaccinate their kids from anonymous randoms on an Internet forum.

I'm really saddened by the amount of people who insist that they won't allow their daughters to be vaccinated against HPV.
I work in healthcare and we're seeing a whole generation of women who have had to undergo cervical surgery and procedures to deal with HPV infection. Data shows that the HPV vaccine has brought down the number of positive smear tests in women who have had it, by a large amount. A gynaecologist said that it's been such a success that the screening programme may be able to reduce the number of smears that a woman will need, to around one or two throughout her whole life. That will save a huge amount of time and money for the NHS, not to mention the benefits to women, many of whom find smear tests embarassing, painful and extremely stressful.

My son was a baby when Wakefield published his stuff about MMR vaccines. My husband was completely panicked by the press reports and the lurid headlines, which wasn't helped by Tony Blair refusing to say whether his kid had been jabbed. We just waited until our son was slightly older before having the jab, I wasn't too bothered, I remembered my mum telling me that there were doubts about the whooping-cough jab when I was a baby, vaccine scare stories are as old as vaccines. I went to an infection control meeting a while ago and we were informed of the rising numbers of twenty+ year old young people, who had been hospitalised with measles, as a direct result of Wakefield's lies back in the late 90's.

 

[Ensay]

I'm really saddened by the amount of people who insist that they won't allow their daughters to be vaccinated against HPV.
I work in healthcare and we're seeing a whole generation of women who have had to undergo cervical surgery and procedures to deal with HPV infection. Data shows that the HPV vaccine has brought down the number of positive smear tests in women who have had it, by a large amount. A gynaecologist said that it's been such a success that the screening programme may be able to reduce the number of smears that a woman will need, to around one or two throughout her whole life. That will save a huge amount of time and money for the NHS, not to mention the benefits to women, many of whom find smear tests embarassing, painful and extremely stressful.

My son was a baby when Wakefield published his stuff about MMR vaccines. My husband was completely panicked by the press reports and the lurid headlines, which wasn't helped by Tony Blair refusing to say whether his kid had been jabbed. We just waited until our son was slightly older before having the jab, I wasn't too bothered, I remembered my mum telling me that there were doubts about the whooping-cough jab when I was a baby, vaccine scare stories are as old as vaccines. I went to an infection control meeting a while ago and we were informed of the rising numbers of twenty+ year old young people, who had been hospitalised with measles, as a direct result of Wakefield's lies back in the late 90's.

Thanks for this. I wasn't aware of those statistics, though it makes sense as I understand HPV can lead to several cancers; cervical cancer being one of them. I know those children could decide to have their HPV vaccination themselves later in life, but from some research I've done I understand it's more effective if taken in the early teen years - i.e. before they become sexually active. So a parent denying their child the HPV vaccine could have a negative knock-on effect later on.

I do understand some of the nervousness people have had when it comes to the covid vaccinations, given they were new, and of course there's a lot of material out there saying how dangerous they are, which will have influenced some people. But I don't see how that nervousness then turns into being anti all or most vaccines. After all, the HPV vaccine has been around for a lot longer and has statistics that back it up, as you've helpfully outlined.

A lot of those who are against the vaccines wonder why more people don't do research into them, but they show they're sometimes not doing research of their own. They've just decided they don't want one vaccine and then distrust them all. They give ominous predictions, such as vastly increased death rates that they attribute to the covid vaccines, but they don't make any predictions about the negative impact a rise in general anti vaccination sentiment might have.