Anti Conspiracy Theories #6 wakey, wakey!

[klarakluckbag]

A lot of those who are against the vaccines wonder why more people don't do research into them, but they show they're sometimes not doing research of their own. They've just decided they don't want one vaccine and then distrust them all. They give ominous predictions, such as vastly increased death rates that they attribute to the covid vaccines, but they don't make any predictions about the negative impact a rise in general anti vaccination sentiment might have.

@Ensay
I get very cross when seeing posts exclaiming that the covid vaccine caused (for example) something like 50% of pregnant women to miscarry. This is an outright lie, and the sort of scaremongering that causes enormous distress and harm to women and their families.
It's all very well, egging each other on when shitposting on a gossip forum but it really does have real life consequences.

 

[Ensay]

@Ensay
I get very cross when seeing posts exclaiming that the covid vaccine caused (for example) something like 50% of pregnant women to miscarry. This is an outright lie, and the sort of scaremongering that causes enormous distress and harm to women and their families.
It's all very well, egging each other on when shitposting on a gossip forum but it really does have real life consequences.

Agreed. You'd like to think people would see that kind of misinformation for what it is, but not everyone does. Especially if it's coming from people who appear genuine and trustworthy.

 

[Moth]

I'm going to sound like CT here (irony i know) but I do wonder if part of this whole thing started with the inaccessible health care in america. People started looking online for medical advice and solutions and they've ended up down a rabbit hole. Antivax imo seems to have began as an American thing. I am in my late twenties and I didn't know anyone who was unvaccinated (MMR etc.) as a kid. It just wasn't the norm. It seems to be a lot more prevalent now in the UK

I've always thought that anti-vaccine sentiment originated from frauds like Andrew Wakefield, was picked up by paranoid libertarians in the US and ultimately adopted as a political position by 'mainstream' right wing nut jobs who used it as one of the sticks to beat 'interfering', 'nanny state' government.

So much of the Covid anti-vaccine propaganda was / is disseminated by the 'alt-right', QAnon factions which similarly railed against mask wearing and lock downs as infringements on liberty foisted on us by a controlling socialist elite. It was of course eagerly adopted by conspiracy theorists near and far desperate to use any weapon against the evil establishment however tenuous.

 

[witchofwestbyfleet]

And another round of "it must have been the vaccine!" with the death of Lisa Marie Presley. Elvis's weight was seemingly the main factor in his death, but reportedly his parents and grandparents also had heart disease, sadly these things run in families

 

[Ensay]

And another round of "it must have been the vaccine!" with the death of Lisa Marie Presley. Elvis's weight was seemingly the main factor in his death, but reportedly his parents and grandparents also had heart disease, sadly these things run in families

Indeed. Many will say there's nothing wrong with speculation, but if you follow up on such claims afterwards and show they weren't vaccine related (e.g. after a post mortem, or confirmation the individual wasn't even vaccinated) you'll generally get told you're point scoring, starting drama, being disrespectful, etc. It's a form of defensiveness, as people generally don't like being proven wrong and prefer to deflect than say they made a mistake.

Andrew Bridgen is causing a lot of waves. I see from his Twitter he's doubling down and seems to think that - because a couple of Jewish people told him his comparison to the Holocaust wasn't offensive, that means it can't be offensive. Never mind the many Jewish people that did find it offensive, I guess he thinks those people don't matter. And I'm aware he was quoting someone when he said it, but he posted it in agreement. And he didn't post it in quote marks, which likely means they were his words and he was only paraphrasing what someone else said to him.

I'm not saying he can't have concerns, but if he was my MP I'd be wondering exactly what he was doing for my constituency given almost all of his time seems to be devoted to railing against vaccines. He's also quoting emails sent from people whose identity hasn't been verified (it could easily be his mate). Dodgy indeed. I'm sure many of the good people in North West Leicestershire are wondering what the heck he's doing, but they don't matter, they only voted him in.

 

[Doctor_Wibble]

Interesting to see dr mohaltra on the bbc this morning talking about mrna vaccines and heart conditions, uninterrupted even though the primary subject of the question was due to dishing out statins like sweets.
Only a couple of days after the pieces about the big reduction in blood pressure first-prescriptions during the first lockdown (looks like ~120k down to ~70k people).

Secondary/tertiary (direct, indirect, consequential) effects that came about as a result of but not purely due to lockdowns given susceptibility depends on numerous factors but certainly in the UK significantly due to so many of us (and I do not claim purity here) being sedentary lardy blobs who don't bother going to the doctor until arms, legs etc start falling off.

 

[Ensay]

Interesting to see dr mohaltra on the bbc this morning talking about mrna vaccines and heart conditions, uninterrupted even though the primary subject of the question was due to dishing out statins like sweets.
Only a couple of days after the pieces about the big reduction in blood pressure first-prescriptions during the first lockdown (looks like ~120k down to ~70k people).

Secondary/tertiary (direct, indirect, consequential) effects that came about as a result of but not purely due to lockdowns given susceptibility depends on numerous factors but certainly in the UK significantly due to so many of us (and I do not claim purity here) being sedentary lardy blobs who don't bother going to the doctor until arms, legs etc start falling off.

Well, at least that puts paid to their "we're being silenced" claims. After all, there's no way BBC News didn't know his anti mRNA vaccine claims before asking him to appear on their programme.

And yeah there are so many factors at play when it comes to heart conditions like you say. It can't be simplified down to one cause; there are many.

 

[Doctor_Wibble]

Well, at least that puts paid to their "we're being silenced" claims. After all, there's no way BBC News didn't know his anti mRNA vaccine claims before asking him to appear on their programme.

And yeah there are so many factors at play when it comes to heart conditions like you say. It can't be simplified down to one cause; there are many.

Having only just gone on to the vaccine thread I see it's already posted about on there an hour earlier, D'oh! So much for my big CT-imploding news scoop
Anyway, someone else was on a bit later offering some other remarks not quite in agreement so I guess the counter-revolution downrising will have to wait until after teatime.

 

[CoffeeMamma]

I’m HPV positive and if they’d told me I could have been vaccinated instead of being smear tested every 6 months I know what I’d have

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

Well, at least that puts paid to their "we're being silenced" claims. After all, there's no way BBC News didn't know his anti mRNA vaccine claims before asking him to appear on their programme.

Latest from the Guardian on criticism of both the BBC for having him on, and of Malhotra himself, for his impromptu fake claims about mrna on the News channel this am, when he was invited to talk purely about Nice guidelines on statins. Experts accuse him of 'pushing “extreme fringe” views, which are “misguided”, “dangerous” and could mislead the public.'
Hard to believe the BBC producers weren't aware beforehand of the likelihood of Malhotra shoehorning in his vaccine views. However this does interestingly show that even a brief appearance on a mainstream platform leads to a big backlash from senior cardiology and virology experts (one of whom says in the article that Malhotra has no career to speak of).
From the article: 'Prof Marc Dweck, the chair of clinical cardiology at the University of Edinburgh, told the Guardian: “I think that Dr Malhotra’s opinions on both statins and Covid vaccines are misguided and in fact dangerous. The vast majority of cardiologists do not agree with his views and they are not based upon robust science.'

BBC criticised for letting cardiologist ‘hijack’ interview with false Covid jab claim

Aseem Malhotra’s ‘misguided’ views linking some Covid vaccines to excess heart disease deaths should not have aired, say experts

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ensay]

Latest from the Guardian on criticism of both the BBC for having him on, and of Malhotra himself, for his impromptu fake claims about mrna on the News channel this am, when he was invited to talk purely about Nice guidelines on statins. Experts accuse him of 'pushing “extreme fringe” views, which are “misguided”, “dangerous” and could mislead the public.'
Hard to believe the BBC producers weren't aware beforehand of the likelihood of Malhotra shoehorning in his vaccine views. However this does interestingly show that even a brief appearance on a mainstream platform leads to a big backlash from senior cardiology and virology experts (one of whom says in the article that Malhotra has no career to speak of).
From the article: 'Prof Marc Dweck, the chair of clinical cardiology at the University of Edinburgh, told the Guardian: “I think that Dr Malhotra’s opinions on both statins and Covid vaccines are misguided and in fact dangerous. The vast majority of cardiologists do not agree with his views and they are not based upon robust science.'

BBC criticised for letting cardiologist ‘hijack’ interview with false Covid jab claim

Aseem Malhotra’s ‘misguided’ views linking some Covid vaccines to excess heart disease deaths should not have aired, say experts

www.theguardian.com

In some ways I feel sorry for him. It's clear he's still grieving for his father and looking for something to blame. You only have to read his pinned tweet to see it:

Goodbye Papa. I promise you with all my heart I will ensure that your premature passing will not be in vain & that we achieve justice for those who have suffered unnecessarily from an mRNA jab that should likely never have been approved & certainly not without informed consent.

Not that I'm making excuses for his misinformation and I'm not surprised that he doesn't have a cardiology career.

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

I know how you feel.

In some ways I feel sorry for him. It's clear he's still grieving for his father and looking for something to blame. You only have to read his pinned tweet to see it:

Goodbye Papa. I promise you with all my heart I will ensure that your premature passing will not be in vain & that we achieve justice for those who have suffered unnecessarily from an mRNA jab that should likely never have been approved & certainly not without informed consent.

Not that I'm making excuses for his misinformation and I'm not surprised that he doesn't have a cardiology career.

I too feel some sympathy for him on a human level for the huge loss of his father. He seems a likeable, intelligent man but since his father's death his opinions on mrna vaccines have become more and more extreme and misinformed. Many senior cardiologists are distancing themselves from Malhotra and his views, not without good reason. He did retweet a video by Andrew Bridgen the other day ffs.

 

[Lalalalaaaaaa85]

Ok I’m the biggest advocate for this thread and I’m so anti conspiracy but what the HELL is going on with the gun crime suddenly in the UK

 

[mcfeez]

Ok I’m the biggest advocate for this thread and I’m so anti conspiracy but what the HELL is going on with the gun crime suddenly in the UK

What incidences are you referring to in particular? Not nitpicking genuinely wondering.

Weve had a couple of shootings here in N.Ireland more recently but these are usually paramilitary related.

EDIT - Literally just after I posted this went to BBC homepage and saw about London Euston shooting

 

[Baby Giraffe]

Ok I’m the biggest advocate for this thread and I’m so anti conspiracy but what the HELL is going on with the gun crime suddenly in the UK

Sadly there's always been some gun crime in the UK but unless it involves kids or innocent bystanders than it doesn't get reported much as most of it is gang related

 

[struggs123]

All vaccines have side effects so I do think any patterns should be looked into to ensure safety going forward but also so people can more accurately calculate the risk benefit to make an informed choice. The bit that gets me is that we know covid itself causes heart and other organ issues along with clots (at a significantly higher instance than these noted effects from the vaccines), so although I feel it should be looked into more I don't get why people believe without question a doctor who says it's the vaccines rather than wanting more research and data to confirm this is or isn't the case. I mean I know why, anyone that supports someone's view is more likely to garner someone's support, but covid has some really savage effects which are being dismissed by some. I do also know many have been affected badly by the jabs- both can be true.

I find the (unsubstantiated) claims that the vaccines have caused stillbirths etc really upsetting because of the impact that will have on some. Again, I think there should be impartial research and am not unquestionably vaccines are great, but it conveniently ignores that these issues were prevalent during covid/lockdown but before vaccines, and the statistics on pregnant women admitted to ITU and the covid and vaccine status of these women.

The news from Japan of more heart related deaths, I'm not sure why vaccines over covid itself is seen as more likely by many, I suppose assuming vaccines is less scary for some because there's more choice in them, the idea that a virus can still be causing such mayhem and we haven't been able to stop it I guess is wild.

 

[Maccat123]

All vaccines have side effects so I do think any patterns should be looked into to ensure safety going forward but also so people can more accurately calculate the risk benefit to make an informed choice. The bit that gets me is that we know covid itself causes heart and other organ issues along with clots (at a significantly higher instance than these noted effects from the vaccines), so although I feel it should be looked into more I don't get why people believe without question a doctor who says it's the vaccines rather than wanting more research and data to confirm this is or isn't the case. I mean I know why, anyone that supports someone's view is more likely to garner someone's support, but covid has some really savage effects which are being dismissed by some. I do also know many have been affected badly by the jabs- both can be true.

I find the (unsubstantiated) claims that the vaccines have caused stillbirths etc really upsetting because of the impact that will have on some. Again, I think there should be impartial research and am not unquestionably vaccines are great, but it conveniently ignores that these issues were prevalent during covid/lockdown but before vaccines, and the statistics on pregnant women admitted to ITU and the covid and vaccine status of these women.

The news from Japan of more heart related deaths, I'm not sure why vaccines over covid itself is seen as more likely by many, I suppose assuming vaccines is less scary for some because there's more choice in them, the idea that a virus can still be causing such mayhem and we haven't been able to stop it I guess is wild.

I feel exactly the same. I actually did end up having heart damage as a result of my Covid infection and have had people tell me I’m making it up/asking to see medical records (whilst blindly accepting any vaccine injuries) and also that Covid doesn’t actually exist.

I definitely agree that it’s good to question things and that people have sadly had some really adverse effects who should absolutely be believed and received medical help. However it’s the assigning everything to the vaccine and dismissing Covid entirely that gets me (I also don’t understand why the spike protein in the vaccine is so alarming but the spike protein in the actual virus isn’t?).

 

[Ensay]

All vaccines have side effects so I do think any patterns should be looked into to ensure safety going forward but also so people can more accurately calculate the risk benefit to make an informed choice. The bit that gets me is that we know covid itself causes heart and other organ issues along with clots (at a significantly higher instance than these noted effects from the vaccines), so although I feel it should be looked into more I don't get why people believe without question a doctor who says it's the vaccines rather than wanting more research and data to confirm this is or isn't the case. I mean I know why, anyone that supports someone's view is more likely to garner someone's support, but covid has some really savage effects which are being dismissed by some. I do also know many have been affected badly by the jabs- both can be true.

I find the (unsubstantiated) claims that the vaccines have caused stillbirths etc really upsetting because of the impact that will have on some. Again, I think there should be impartial research and am not unquestionably vaccines are great, but it conveniently ignores that these issues were prevalent during covid/lockdown but before vaccines, and the statistics on pregnant women admitted to ITU and the covid and vaccine status of these women.

The news from Japan of more heart related deaths, I'm not sure why vaccines over covid itself is seen as more likely by many, I suppose assuming vaccines is less scary for some because there's more choice in them, the idea that a virus can still be causing such mayhem and we haven't been able to stop it I guess is wild.

I don't get it either. I've long said no medicines are without side effects (you only have to look at the long list of possible side effects provided with pretty much all medication, even paracetamol). I understand that's cold comfort for people who've been affected by side effects associated with vaccines, but I don't see why some (not all) think that should mean all vaccines should be pulled for all people. It's illogical.

They say they have an "open mind", but most of them have been convinced all vaccines are bad for ages, so they just cherry pick stuff on the internet that backs up their view and then see that as incontrovertible proof that they're definitely right.

I do hope any expectant mothers or parents of children who are coming up for childhood vaccinations will do full research and speak to their doctors, nurses etc, rather than relying on information on the internet that could have been put there by anyone. I notice a lot of them are generally anti doctors as well, though, making out like they're all uncaring people who lazily give medication willy nilly. But you can see why they do it, because most doctors recommend vaccines and they don't think vaccines are safe, so they view doctors as the 'enemy' and want to discredit them.

But I can't be arsed to discuss it with them anymore, as they're so blinkered and are usually unwilling to debate respectfully. By that I mean discussing beliefs back and forth and sticking to the content of what's being discussed. It's usually a case of: "you disagree with me, you're a troll, I'm putting you on ignore now". Debates do still exist in some environments, but rarely online.

 

[struggs123]

Seems we have touched a nerve on the other thread. I was actually referring to the extreme views held on twitter, but if the cap fits and all.

In terms of general CTs my brothers new thing is that he is being monitored. I'm like yes of course I'm sure the agencies have a really vested interest in the activity of a 40 year old addict who adds not much value to society. I can well imagine they're investing a lot of money and personnel in seeing what you have to say.

 

[Ensay]

Seems we have touched a nerve on the other thread. I was actually referring to the extreme views held on twitter, but if the cap fits and all.

In terms of general CTs my brothers new thing is that he is being monitored. I'm like yes of course I'm sure the agencies have a really vested interest in the activity of a 40 year old addict who adds not much value to society. I can well imagine they're investing a lot of money and personnel in seeing what you have to say.

Most of what I was talking about comes from Twitter and YouTube, especially those that were in reply to Andrew Bridgen's recent tweets, or videos about his comments.

The latter part sounds concerning as it's straying into paranoia territory.