The Royal Family #30

FenellaTheWitch · Dec 11, 2022

Emsie said:
@Boring Monday and @Baby Giraffe you articulated my point way better than me
no one is asking you stop using words don't be so dramatic. I don't know why people get so defensive when others point something out. Just be like oh okay, I didn't see it like that but now you've said it... you didn't write the article did you, so no need to be taking it so personal

Mainly because you can go along using perfectly normal words that have been used for centuries and suddenly find you they can't be used to describe a black person. It was like when Eamonn Holmes was castigated for using uppity to describe Meghan Markle.

To the average person on the street all these words are used quite innocently and it just becomes exhausting. I take it personally because it could easily be me using these terms and next thing I'm being accused of using inappropriate language.

Don't want to derail the thread with this.

Jen667 · Dec 11, 2022

FenellaTheWitch said:
Mainly because you can go along using perfectly normal words that have been used for centuries and suddenly find you they can't be used to describe a black person. It was like when Eamonn Holmes was castigated for using uppity to describe Meghan Markle.

To the average person on the street all these words are used quite innocently and it just becomes exhausting. I take it personally because it could easily be me using these terms and next thing I'm being accused of using inappropriate language.

Don't want to derail the thread with this.

Once someone explained the history behind 'uppity' I understood it more. But most people in this country wouldn't have been aware of the connotations because we don't have the same history of slavery as the US

FenellaTheWitch · Dec 11, 2022

Jen667 said:
The Compton headline was racist. The 'niggling' one was not.
It's interesting that H&M only target the UK media yet the majority of the headlines they use as 'proof' of the racism and harassment are American.

The Compton headline was out of order. Whoever approved that was a disgrace.
I read up about uppity after the Holmes incident.

Harry's gripe with the media seems very UK based when in fact it's a world wide issue. It was international paparazzi that killed his mother.

Jen667 · Dec 11, 2022

FenellaTheWitch said:
The Compton headline was out of order. Whoever approved that was a disgrace.
I read up about uppity after the Holmes incident.

Harry's gripe with the media seems very UK based when in fact it's a world wide issue. It was international paparazzi that killed his mother.

It was a drunk driver that killed his mother

Boring Monday · Dec 11, 2022

Onetwofour said:
I could see William asking why Meghan needs more palace protection as Kate had to go through it too. Meghan was attacked for being American and mixed race, Kate for being a commoner. Harry sayd that the racist angle makes it completely different. I think that's an interesting question and I cannot answer to it but it could have been a point of tension between Harry and William.

The point about classiscism vs racism has been also a point of discord among the left. The left was typically protecting workers and using a rhetoric around the fight between social classes. With the loss of influences from unions, a part of the left - the liberal left - has been much more focused on minorities protection - which is also needed. But this phenomena went with some kind of neglect towards the working class struggles. I think Meghsn and Harry are much less sensitive to those questions - they don't talk about wealth inequalities neither do they consider their own wealth is not necessarily desserved.

Also, the documentary portrays them as two unique people who went through many challenges but the ressources they had access to are hardly mentionned. Meghan could go to a select private highschool because her parents could pay for it. She could pursue her dream of being an actress because she didn't have to worry about money. It took many years but her ex-husband could support her and share his connections to her as he was a movie producer in Hollywood. Harry, well is a prince of England, could attend the most select school in the UK because of his family and have had so many accesses/opportunities because of his status. They are both quite oblivious of those privilegies. In this sense they are quite similar to Harry's family.

At some point this X should have to go through this as a rite of passage because Y had to, is going to have to stop and an acceptance that no one well, okay, no woman (men seem to get away relatively unscathed. I would bet good money that if females with the past history of the husbands of Beatrice and Eugenie had ‘married in’ it would have been a Tabloid feeding frenzy) should be subjected to that level of scrutiny, derision and pitting against each other.

Well, if they will if they ever want George or Louis to find a partner that is. Going back to the 1970’s with Charles suitable (and unsuitable) gels were backing off from marrying into the Royal Family because of the press intrusion and it’s a 100 times worse now.

MoodyBlue · Dec 11, 2022

I wouldn't have read it like that either. But then, I'm white, so it wouldn't jump out at me. But POC would and that's really nasty, if the intent was there.

Jen667 · Dec 11, 2022

it's worse now because we live in a digital age. When Charles was single there was no internet, smart phones, streaming...Tattle. All you had back then was news print and TV

Emsie · Dec 11, 2022

FenellaTheWitch said:
Mainly because you can go along using perfectly normal words that have been used for centuries and suddenly find you they can't be used to describe a black person. It was like when Eamonn Holmes was castigated for using uppity to describe Meghan Markle.

To the average person on the street all these words are used quite innocently and it just becomes exhausting. I take it personally because it could easily be me using these terms and next thing I'm being accused of using inappropriate language.

Don't want to derail the thread with this.

If you're not keeping yourself up to date with language that's a you problem, not everyone else trying to do better.
Agree no longer derail and move this along now.

stardust21 · Dec 11, 2022

Jen667 said:
It was a drunk driver that killed his mother

And the fact she wasn’t wearing a seatbelt.

Em_gardener · Dec 11, 2022

FenellaTheWitch said:
The Compton headline was out of order. Whoever approved that was a disgrace.
I read up about uppity after the Holmes incident.

Harry's gripe with the media seems very UK based when in fact it's a world wide issue. It was international paparazzi that killed his mother.

I think Harry's issues with the UK media have a lot to do with his childhood even before his mother died. That footage of them posing on their skiing holiday was very sad. He blames the media for his romantic relationships not working out as well. The UK media are much better behaved when it comes to the royals now though. William had a lot of privacy at university and the press only photograph them at official events. They're never papped. The royal rota system seems to work well for the press and the royals but Harry doesn't approve of that either. It's like he wants nothing to do with any press but that's not realistic for a member of the RF. They have to have some kind of working relationship with them. I do think William and Kate manage it well with regards to their children.
I don't think Harry has reached any kind of peace with the media or his own relationship with it. On the one hand he still resents them but on the other he needs them more than ever now to drive views and book sales. He's exposed more of the intimate details of his life than any of the rest of the RF. We've even seen him proposing - I never could have imagined Harry sharing that. His wife and children and some of the most private moments of his life are featured extensively in all the papers he hates the most. His thinking seems to be all muddled up.

whathastheworldcometo · Dec 11, 2022

N Fulani had to temporarily shut her charity because of trolls. This is not right, but she could have foreseen this.

Onetwofour · Dec 11, 2022

Boring Monday said:
At some point this X should have to go through this as a rite of passage because Y had to, is going to have to stop and an acceptance that no one well, okay, no woman (men seem to get away relatively unscathed. I would bet good money that if females with the past history of the husbands of Beatrice and Eugenie had ‘married in’ it would have been a Tabloid feeding frenzy) should be subjected to that level of scrutiny, derision and pitting against each other.

Well, if they will if they ever want George or Louis to find a partner that is. Going back to the 1970’s with Charles suitable (and unsuitable) gels were backing off from marrying into the Royal Family because of the press intrusion and it’s a 100 times worse now.

I agree with you but what kind of power the RF can have against medias? They can bargain as they do now but the DM and co won't be willing to abandon the profits they get with this kind of content. I think it's a broader problem - british tabloids are poisoning the public and political life of the UK with the way they operate and the lies they can publish without much problems. It doesn't only impact the lives of the Royals but anyone they see as a threat for the current status quo or people that could be their cash cows. Bringing outrage on Meghan and Harry is s good way to cover up and distract people from the Malone case. They printed dozens of stories about this documentary but not one word about Malone those last days. They direct the anger of people towards Meghan's way of curtysing or footballers taking a knee while their friends steal taxes money etc.

Honestly, activists and politicians should take this matter (the obscene power of the tabloids) and fight but not because of Meghan and Harry's feelings or the future of Wiliam's children but for the british people. They won't be able to flee to LA and live the high life. That's why I think Meghan and Harry's doc is way too focused on their love relationship and themselves instead of targeting a problem that has systemic repercussions. Their need of auto-promotion to make money and their very individualistic mindset are taking over.

Jen667 · Dec 11, 2022

Onetwofour said:
I agree with you but what kind of power the RF can have against medias? They can bargain as they do now but the DM and co won't be willing to abandon the profits they get with this kind of content. I think it's a broader problem - british tabloids are poisoning the public and political life of the UK with the way they operate and the lies they can publish without much problems. It doesn't only impact the lives of the Royals but anyone they see as a threat for the current status quo or people that could be their cash cows. Bringing outrage on Meghan and Harry is s good way to cover up and distract people from the Malone case. They printed dozens of stories about this documentary but not one word about Malone those last days. They direct the anger of people towards Meghan's way of curtysing or footballers taking a knee while their friends steal taxes money etc.

Honestly, activists and politicians should take this matter (the obscene power of the tabloids) and fight but not because of Meghan and Harry's feelings or the future of Wiliam's children but for the british people. They won't be able to flee to LA and live the high life. That's why I think Meghan and Harry's doc is way too focused on their love relationship and themselves instead of targeting a problem that has systemic repercussions. Their need of auto-promotion to make money and their very individualistic mindset are taking over.

No, sorry. There has been absolutely tons of coverage on Michelle Mone (I think that's who you mean?)

whathastheworldcometo · Dec 11, 2022

Onetwofour said:
I could see William asking why Meghan needs more palace protection as Kate had to go through it too. Meghan was attacked for being American and mixed race, Kate for being a commoner. Harry sayd that the racist angle makes it completely different. I think that's an interesting question and I cannot answer to it but it could have been a point of tension between Harry and William.

The point about classiscism vs racism has been also a point of discord among the left. The left was typically protecting workers and using a rhetoric around the fight between social classes. With the loss of influences from unions, a part of the left - the liberal left - has been much more focused on minorities protection - which is also needed. But this phenomena went with some kind of neglect towards the working class struggles. I think Meghsn and Harry are much less sensitive to those questions - they don't talk about wealth inequalities neither do they consider their own wealth is not necessarily desserved.

Also, the documentary portrays them as two unique people who went through many challenges but the ressources they had access to are hardly mentionned. Meghan could go to a select private highschool because her parents could pay for it. She could pursue her dream of being an actress because she didn't have to worry about money. It took many years but her ex-husband could support her and share his connections to her as he was a movie producer in Hollywood. Harry, well is a prince of England, could attend the most select school in the UK because of his family and have had so many accesses/opportunities because of his status. They are both quite oblivious of those privilegies. In this sense they are quite similar to Harry's family.

Absolutely.

Also, Harry put out a formal statement referring to the press harassment and the "sexist and racist" comments made in the press.
He requested this to stop.

Catherine was also harassed and the term "Waity Katie" could have been interpreted as sexist, but no statement had been made.
So in a way, the palaces did more to protect Meghan than to protect Catherine and a statement referring to sexism and racism had been made.
Not sure what else they could have done? More statements? This would likely have brought more negative attention.

I also think that MM's looks are a part of her privilege. And she seems to be quite proud of her level of attractiveness.

monga · Dec 11, 2022

LoopyLou47 · Dec 11, 2022

Em_gardener said:
could easily believe someone in the RF making a comment when they first found out Harry was dating a mixed race woman but I can't believe that they were having conversations when she was pregnant about the colour of the child's skin influencing what title it would get.

Yes I think that has been conflated somewhat. I can easily see members of the family as well as the courtiers, ladies in waiting etc talking about the colour of future children, and maybe William bringing it up while talking to Harry in a ' she won't fit in' way, and then separate conversations were had laterwhen Meghan was pregnant related to slimming down the family, meaning Archie wouldn't have a title. If Harry hadn't told her that Charles had been wanting to do this, she could have conflated the two, and Harry let her run with it. It's something The Queen should have dealt with long before Harry married, so everyone was aware of what was going to happen. FWIW, I don't think the children looked mixed race when they were babies, but Archie does now look distinctly mixed race. If they had stayed, the optics would have been really beneficial to the RF. But they have all f ed up

Mrs Fluff · Dec 11, 2022

MoodyBlue said:
I wouldn't have read it like that either. But then, I'm white, so it wouldn't jump out at me. But POC would and that's really nasty, if the intent was there.

I think it like that. Ireland was vary much 'white' population when I was growing and after 25 years away I returned to a far more mixed population which was great to see.

But reading the accounts of POC here in this country, the 'where are you really from' type of questions make them feel like outsiders even if that's not the intention so I'm inclined to leave it up to them to bring up their family background if they so wish

whathastheworldcometo · Dec 11, 2022

LoopyLou47 said:
Yes I think that has been conflated somewhat. I can easily see members of the family as well as the courtiers, ladies in waiting etc talking about the colour of future children, and maybe William bringing it up while talking to Harry in a ' she won't fit in' way, and then separate conversations were had laterwhen Meghan was pregnant related to slimming down the family, meaning Archie wouldn't have a title. If Harry hadn't told her that Charles had been wanting to do this, she could have conflated the two, and Harry let her run with it. It's something The Queen should have dealt with long before Harry married, so everyone was aware of what was going to happen. FWIW, I don't think the children looked mixed race when they were babies, but Archie does now look distinctly mixed race. If they had stayed, the optics would have been really beneficial to the RF. But they have all f ed up

I don't know, this is speculation.

I could imagine that it was a more due to the aim of slimming down the monarchy.
TQ offered (advised?) MM to keep working as an actress and why would she do that? Certainly not if she had issues with MM, her professor or her appearance (given that actresses are in the public domain and everyone would have known that MM is married to PH).

It was also clear that Charles was keen to slim down the monarchy. Maybe they would have been happy for MM to carry on working and for PH to do whatever he wants, now that he was no longer needed as a spare as PW had three children.

This is also speculation, but maybe PH and MM were offended by that and then linked the "perceived snub" to race

Ilaariaa · Dec 11, 2022

Mrs Fluff said:
But reading the accounts of POC here in this country, the 'where are you really from' type of questions make them feel like outsiders even if that's not the intention so I'm inclined to leave it up to them to bring up their family background if they so wish

This, plus in general, if you ask someone a question in a conversation and they avoid it, it's incredibly rude to continue badgering them for an answer just because you're curious.
Imagine if someone asked you a personal question you're kind of uncomfortable answering to someone you just met, and they just kept asking over and over until they got an answer from you. If someone did that to me at that point I would literally rather die than give them an answer. I'm petty like that lol.
Some people really just need to be more considerate and learn some manners and tact.

Em_gardener · Dec 11, 2022

LoopyLou47 said:
Yes I think that has been conflated somewhat. I can easily see members of the family as well as the courtiers, ladies in waiting etc talking about the colour of future children, and maybe William bringing it up while talking to Harry in a ' she won't fit in' way, and then separate conversations were had laterwhen Meghan was pregnant related to slimming down the family, meaning Archie wouldn't have a title. If Harry hadn't told her that Charles had been wanting to do this, she could have conflated the two, and Harry let her run with it. It's something The Queen should have dealt with long before Harry married, so everyone was aware of what was going to happen. FWIW, I don't think the children looked mixed race when they were babies, but Archie does now look distinctly mixed race. If they had stayed, the optics would have been really beneficial to the RF. But they have all f ed up

She distinctly said that there were conversations about how dark his skin might be and that that had a bearing on him being a prince or not. I don't think this was a misunderstanding between her and Harry. My opinion is that she was lying.

The Royal Family #30

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Privacy & Transparency