Yes she did well not to marry. She kept all the power for herself and the Tudors would have died with her whether or not she had a child, so who cares about the family name? Especially when her father killed her mother in pursuit of it.
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He was, or at least had some sort of spinal deformity. Not enough to stop him being a good fighter, though.
I’m conflicted about who killed the princes in the tower. Those were violent times. Many of the old noble families had been pretty much extinguished by the wars of the roses, plus the crown changed hands several times in a short period, so I imagine that there was a sense that anything could happen and it was all to play for. It could easily have been Richard who killed them, I think, but the other contenders, Margaret Beaufort and the Duke of Buckingham, were equally likely to have tried it.
After the battle of Tewkesbury, some of the Lancastrian nobles sought sanctuary in a church but the Yorkists, including Richard and his brother George, broke sanctuary and entered the church to slaughter them. A priest tried to stop them by brandishing (I think) a monstrance but they shoved him aside. At that time, that would have been considered a real atrocity. So you have to ask whether somebody capable of doing that would flinch at arranging the murder of two boys.
Correct me if I'm wrong but did the two main pretenders impersonate Richard rather than Edward? Always found it strange they just wouldn't pretend to be the heir rather than the spare. Gives some credit to the rumours Richard wasn't handed over by his mother and another child was!
The books are always better! If you get the chance the R3 memorial in Leicester is a fab place to while away an afternoon.
Yes I know she wouldn't have been able to DO anything but I wonder how she felt about it. Whether she was like yo... That's my bro!
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There were a lot of pretender princes in the tower uprisings under Henry VII, the biggest ones being Perkin Warbeck (sp) and Lambert Simnel (the one who ended up Henry’s falconer). There were even blokes in their forties / fifties (way too old) claiming to be one of the princes.
Other uprisings had a lot to do with people claiming stronger ties to the Plantagenets directly, some of which were stronger than the Tudor’s claim which was through an older sister of a Plantagenet King which was itself ballsy in a system based on primogeniture (inheritance only through the male line which still stands in modern day aristocracy in England).
Foreign powers such as France were known to even include an English quarter in their standards to highlight their claim to the throne too.
Yes H7's claim was through his mother's illegitimate line and his father being half brother to the mad King Henry6? God I love the mystery and intrigue! Not a good time for them but fascinating for me to research!
I love the side stories... Jaquetta Woodville being half witch and ally of Joan of arc, Elizabeth1 and Robert dudley, Catherine carey's father. So much scandal!
Oh we were going to go back to the Nationsl Space centre in Leicester over the summer pre lockdown. Well do that next year on the way to the mil's
Yes when they found his body it was finally proved that he wasn't a hunch back that walked with a limp but in fact he had scoliosis.
But not enough to stop him being a great solider if I remember correctly. Until Bosworth of course!
Possibly a bit random (sorry) but my ultimate historical crush is Thomas Cromwell; listening to the super long audible of The Mirror & The Light at the moment - to get as far as he did from such a disadvantaged / abusive background and to put up with so much from our then noble classes, bunch of entitled snobby, greedy prats. They don’t make em like Thomas anymore!
That was my lockdown audiobook. I listened to the whole trilogy on my hours walk and in the bath. It was brilliant. I really admired him after that.
Oh I'm going to get this! I have some audible credits.. Thank you x
My girl crush will always be Anne Boleyn x
Yes, I cannot wait for the next season of The Crown. Totally agree S3 was not as good as series 1 and 2. Series 4 will be something to watch in the winter if we have another lockdown...I think it had something to do with Henry vii or his mother. His son was a sociopath.
I didnt enjoy series 3 as much as 1 and 2 but I'll still watch the whole thing
Shakespeare did the same with Macbeth to suck up to James VI and I, also pandering to his fascination with witches.I love it when people talk about the Royal Family’s history!
Most of the vilification of R3 was courtesy of the Tudors. Henry VII fended off multiple uprisings by people claiming to be one of the Princes as well, and Henry VII and his successors were really sensitive about their relatively weak claim on the crown.
One of the the biggest piece of propaganda about R3 was from Shakespeare who really played up the crooked cowardly hunchback thing.
Henry VII actually took pity on one of the attempted usurpers because I think the boy was so young at around ten years old, so after crushing his army, Henry gave him a job and the lad ended up caring for the King’s birds of prey. Later, older lads weren’t so lucky.
On a similar note of misrepresented Kings, I believe that King John was actually a very good King contrary to the Robin Hood nonsense. His brother, Richard the Lionheart didn’t spend very long in England at all and was only interested in his French interests and plundering the Middle East. A lot of the tax efforts was part of financing the “Lionheart’s” war machine and was part of the political struggle between a medieval King and his nobility over power.
Also, I always wondered if Edward II was unlucky in that he comes across as a very Renaissance style King, who was unfortunately born into the height of the medieval period where being a bit of an educated fop was a liability. His wife Isabella was something though, even if she did have him murdered.
Duncan wasn't an old man killed in his bed. Macbeth had an equal claim to the throne under the system of tanistry where any male within a certain degree of patrilinear relationship to the last accepted king could claim to be the best man for the job. He made enough of a good job of being king that he could afford to leave Scotland to go on a pilgrimage to Rome and come back again with no uprising in the interim. His wife is the first Queen Consort of Scots whose name we know - Gruoch. He was killed in battle at Lumphannan in Aberdeenshire, nowhere near Dunsinane. His successor, Malcolm Canmore, was the ancestor of the Stuarts so had to be the Good Guy in Shakespeare's story. His first Queen was the Norse Ingebjorg but his second was Margaret Aethling, a Saxon princess displaced by William the Conqueror, now known as Margaret, Queen and Saint. Her sons rather than Ingebjorg's succeeded their father and moved Scotland away from the Celtic church and society towards feudalism, the Roman church, and male patrilinear succession.
Poor Queen Gruoch, her reputation destroyed for centuries as Lady Macbeth when none of that actually happened.
I’ve always thought he did exceptionally well considering his start in life. A fascinating man.
Wow! Thank you for sharing this... Exactly why I love this thread!!
I know that this is very random, but I see Michael Fagan is in the Sun today. He who gategrashed the Queen's bedroom. Myself and my friend saw him in a shop in IsIington reading the Sun and laughing; back in the 80's. We asked the shopkeeper who is that man, and he said the man who saw the Queen in her nightie, he comes in here anytime he is in the papers and reads them and walks out chuckling....
Reading the names Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel just gave me huuuuge flashbacks to GCSE history!!!
Such wonderful names those two !
Why on earth did the Cambridge’s (team) feel it was appropriate to post a photo of a nude child In their Instagram feed as one of the competition photos? They would rightly complain if the privacy and dignity of their children were compromised in this way and yet they’ve allowed a photo of a child young enough not to have any say in the use of their image. As the parent is identifiable it makes it even worse. Very poor judgment by Team Cambridge, I hope to gets removed.
The parents submitted the photo to the competition in the full knowledge that it could be shared in the public arena. It’s not as if it was a pap shot from a drone.
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