The Archie Battersbee case

[Cack Conroe]

I suspect the mum has a life-long pattern of using denial as a coping mechanism, including aggression and hostility towards anything threatening that denial state. At the moment, the distressing situation is the impending death of her child, and those threatening her ability to deny this inevitable loss of her child are the hospital and the legal profession. Therefore she's attacking them because that's just how her mind works. It's easier for her to believe that it's humanly possible for her son to have a tiny chance of survival that is being denied to him, than to believe that he is already effectively dead. It's hope versus hopelessness.

I will refrain from judging her for her actions, I think her motives are good (if misguided) and her unpleasant behaviour is a combination of medical ignorance and irrationality of grief/extreme denial. She's just a mum who loves her child and wants him to survive, and she thinks the hospital are meanly not letting that happen. I do understand what she means about the comfort of knowing that they did everything humanly possible to save him; to her mind, this includes not giving up until his own body gives up despite the ventilator. She is worried she'll be forever haunted by asking herself "what if?". It's easy for us to think that this could be eased by learning more about the medical situation, but she obviously has a below-average understanding of physiology to begin with, combined with below-average ability to be objective.

Similarly, the Christians and other people supporting Archie's family really just want a little boy to survive. It may be ignorant but it's not malicious.

 

[Droosie123]

I suspect the mum has a life-long pattern of using denial as a coping mechanism, including aggression and hostility towards anything threatening that denial state. At the moment, the distressing situation is the impending death of her child, and those threatening her ability to deny this inevitable loss of her child are the hospital and the legal profession. Therefore she's attacking them because that's just how her mind works. It's easier for her to believe that it's humanly possible for her son to have a tiny chance of survival that is being denied to him, than to believe that he is already effectively dead. It's hope versus hopelessness.

I will refrain from judging her for her actions, I think her motives are good (if misguided) and her unpleasant behaviour is a combination of medical ignorance and irrationality of grief/extreme denial. She's just a mum who loves her child and wants him to survive, and she thinks the hospital are meanly not letting that happen. I do understand what she means about the comfort of knowing that they did everything humanly possible to save him; to her mind, this includes not giving up until his own body gives up despite the ventilator. She is worried she'll be forever haunted by asking herself "what if?". It's easy for us to think that this could be eased by learning more about the medical situation, but she obviously has a below-average understanding of physiology to begin with, combined with below-average ability to be objective.

Similarly, the Christians and other people supporting Archie's family really just want a little boy to survive. It may be ignorant but it's not malicious.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this post. I guessed Archie’s Mum had a checkered past. I totally agree though that when all is said and done she just wants her little boy to survive. I do feel for her but I also pity the doctors and nurses caring for Archie and having to deal with her as a hostile relative,

 

[Wifo1976]

It’s just a massively heartbreaking situation all round isn’t it. Forget about the family background- they just want their boy to survive which is what everyone wants. An unimaginable position to be in. My heart goes out to absolutely everyone involved

 

[lastdis]

the Archie army group on Facebook is bleeping bonkers. People selling things making profit from a dying child, a go fund me, for what it doesn’t say what the money will go to

 

[Lalalemon]

the Archie army group on Facebook is bleeping bonkers. People selling things making profit from a dying child, a go fund me, for what it doesn’t say what the money will go to

One go fund me says for legal fees, the other medical fees.
Neither of which are needed, the wacko 'christian' lawyers are acting pro bono (means they don't charge) and he's in an NHS hospital so they don't charge!
Making money off a dying child is horrific.

 

[Sglodion]

I don't know anything about the details of this specific case and from what you've all said it does seem likely that there was more to it, but a family member almost died attempting a similar 'prank' (nothing to do with tiktok though) so I wouldn't automatically rule it out. Thank God our case ended happily, but you really can't overestimate teenagers' lack of common sense and willingness to do stupid tit on impulse without thinking through the consequences.

 

[Felix08]

I don't know anything about the details of this specific case and from what you've all said it does seem likely that there was more to it, but a family member almost died attempting a similar 'prank' (nothing to do with tiktok though) so I wouldn't automatically rule it out. Thank God our case ended happily, but you really can't overestimate teenagers' lack of common sense and willingness to do stupid tit on impulse without thinking through the consequences.

No one knows what really happend, myabe his mum does but om not sure. I think his case can be called an accidental suicide. Him being that age and having ADHD can result in poor impulse control. Its so sad all around..

 

[Cack Conroe]

I don't know anything about the details of this specific case and from what you've all said it does seem likely that there was more to it, but a family member almost died attempting a similar 'prank' (nothing to do with tiktok though) so I wouldn't automatically rule it out. Thank God our case ended happily, but you really can't overestimate teenagers' lack of common sense and willingness to do stupid tit on impulse without thinking through the consequences.

He was described in the court judgements as “hanging”, and that his mum cut the dressing gown cord and he fell 8 feet. His mum said his sister saw him practicing on her door frame the night before. I don’t see how this can be anything other than a deliberate hanging, how can you accidentally fall over the upstairs bannisters into a dressing gown cord and get suspended by your neck?

It’s still impulsive though, he lacked the foresight to realise that emotions always end and that whatever was distressing him would have eventually passed, too.

No one knows what really happend, myabe his mum does but om not sure. I think his case can be called an accidental suicide. Him being that age and having ADHD can result in poor impulse control. Its so sad all around..

Accidental suicide is a good description.

Given the fact he practiced in front of his sister, it may have been a cry for help rather than a true attempt. I think if he really wanted to die he would have done it at night, or otherwise in a more private way, to ensure that he wouldn’t get caught.

He might have thought it would be easy for his mum to notice and save him, and at his age wouldn’t have realised how quickly hanging kills. He also wouldn’t have been able to accurately estimate the chance of his mum finding him, children are oblivious to the daily work their mums do and he wouldn’t have realised she was probably busy.

 

[MrsBsDayOff]

He was described in the court judgements as “hanging”, and that his mum cut the dressing gown cord and he fell 8 feet. His mum said his sister saw him practicing on her door frame the night before. I don’t see how this can be anything other than a deliberate hanging, how can you accidentally fall over the upstairs bannisters into a dressing gown cord and get suspended by your neck?

It’s still impulsive though, he lacked the foresight to realise that emotions always end and that whatever was distressing him would have eventually passed, too.



Accidental suicide is a good description.

Given the fact he practiced in front of his sister, it may have been a cry for help rather than a true attempt. I think if he really wanted to die he would have done it at night, or otherwise in a more private way, to ensure that he wouldn’t get caught.

He might have thought it would be easy for his mum to notice and save him, and at his age wouldn’t have realised how quickly hanging kills. He also wouldn’t have been able to accurately estimate the chance of his mum finding him, children are oblivious to the daily work their mums do and he wouldn’t have realised she was probably busy.

God, this is dark, poor Archie and what a brutal thing for family to have witnessed.

 

[chickhicks86]

Wouldn't you be keeping a really close eye if he had been seen practicing, whether you thought his intentions were suicide or not? Such a sad case and I truly believe that he is only being kept "alive" because of his mother's guilt, whatever the reason for that is. I hope they can allow him peace soon.

 

[Cack Conroe]

Here are a collection of interviews with his mum:

His mum from a month ago:



Five days ago:



Ten days ago before the ruling:



GB News interview from a month ago with Archie’s mum Hollie and his sister in law Ella (who is the family’s spokesperson in court).



In the above, Hollie describes the ligature and claims it was round his chin and back of his head, not his neck. But nooses do look like that when you hang.

They describe a lack of compassion from the medical staff. I believe this and have experienced this myself recently when we had just been told my dad was about to die; one intensive care doctor got really angry and hostile with me just for asking a question.

They are asked why do the doctors say they don’t want to continue treatment, Ella answers that they say they don’t think it’s dignified, and that the staff feel uncomfortable treating him. If this is true, these are matters of personal opinion and I don’t think the personal feelings of staff should come into it. It’s inappropriate. The only valid reasons should be he definitely cannot survive and has no possible good experience of life (and probably no experience at all) and he’s artificially being kept alive.

It seems the family’s hopes were initially raised by Southend hospital thinking that the London hospital Archie was transferred to could offer life-saving cranial decompression surgery. This surgery was never done. In the court judgements it says that it wasn’t done because Archie’s brain damage was too widespread. But on a human level I can totally understand the devastating effect of hopes being raised then dashed. I wonder if the hospitals failed to properly communicate that this surgery may not be possible.

At the time the family were fighting against the brain stem tests, on the basis that they’re primitive and unreliable, and that it allows them to declare Archie dead. When asked if they would accept the objective outcomes of scans to determine the state if the brain, Hollie said she’s not ready to accept that yet.

My general impression is that there been communication failures from the hospitals, combined with a lack of sensitivity. The has added fuel to the fire of Hollie’s denial, and fuelled the whole family’s distrust.

This is not an excuse of any deliberately false allegations (if it is deliberate). There has been discussion on this thread of the hostility of families in denial and who can’t comprehend their loved one is beyond help. But I do think we have to consider the possibility that staff haven’t been 100% perfect. They are human too. Dealing with the family of a dying child is extremely sensitive, and easy to say the wrong thing to them. Plus, doctors have a tendency to look down on laypeople at the best of times and do not like their authority questioned, I can only imagine it’s worse when a “trashy” family are being irrational.

 

[Droosie123]

Here are a collection of interviews with his mum:

His mum from a month ago:



Five days ago:



Ten days ago before the ruling:



GB News interview from a month ago with Archie’s mum Hollie and his sister in law Ella (who is the family’s spokesperson in court).



In the above, Hollie describes the ligature and claims it was round his chin and back of his head, not his neck. But nooses do look like that when you hang.

They describe a lack of compassion from the medical staff. I believe this and have experienced this myself recently when we had just been told my dad was about to die; one intensive care doctor got really angry and hostile with me just for asking a question.

They are asked why do the doctors say they don’t want to continue treatment, Ella answers that they say they don’t think it’s dignified, and that the staff feel uncomfortable treating him. If this is true, these are matters of personal opinion and I don’t think the personal feelings of staff should come into it. It’s inappropriate. The only valid reasons should be he definitely cannot survive and has no possible good experience of life (and probably no experience at all) and he’s artificially being kept alive.

It seems the family’s hopes were initially raised by Southend hospital thinking that the London hospital Archie was transferred to could offer life-saving cranial decompression surgery. This surgery was never done. In the court judgements it says that it wasn’t done because Archie’s brain damage was too widespread. But on a human level I can totally understand the devastating effect of hopes being raised then dashed. I wonder if the hospitals failed to properly communicate that this surgery may not be possible.

At the time the family were fighting against the brain stem tests, on the basis that they’re primitive and unreliable, and that it allows them to declare Archie dead. When asked if they would accept the objective outcomes of scans to determine the state if the brain, Hollie said she’s not ready to accept that yet.

My general impression is that there been communication failures from the hospitals, combined with a lack of sensitivity. The has added fuel to the fire of Hollie’s denial, and fuelled the whole family’s distrust.

This is not an excuse of any deliberately false allegations (if it is deliberate). There has been discussion on this thread of the hostility of families in denial and who can’t comprehend their loved one is beyond help. But I do think we have to consider the possibility that staff haven’t been 100% perfect. They are human too. Dealing with the family of a dying child is extremely sensitive, and easy to say the wrong thing to them. Plus, doctors have a tendency to look down on laypeople at the best of times and do not like their authority questioned, I can only imagine it’s worse when a “trashy” family are being irrational.

&es indeed. I work for the NHS in a non clinical role. I have previously been a nurse and midwife. My current opinion is that we are looking at a service stretched to breaking point and things are being missed, communication is poor and sometimes families are promised stuff which takes ages to sort out. I’m thinking here of stuff like care packages which involve going through social care (another underfunded and under resourced organisation).

As a result you meet families in utter despair and frustration.

I think you could well be right and it’s that combination of poor communication coupled with grief.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

If he’s coned then life isn’t viable sadly. That would happen fairly quickly after he jumped/hanged/whatever the mum wants to say. Even if you could resurrect him he’d be beyond incredibly impaired, would have no quality of life and wouldn’t live for more than a few minutes without life support.

Unfortunately cases like this are starting to be more common as people have access to so much medical misinformation and our medical model moves towards a very American “patient knows best” style of relationship. Surprisingly people who went to university for 3/5/6/10 years tend to know a wee bit more about these things than Susan who’s worked in Morrisons her entire life but increasingly people believe they’re the correct party. Obviously no medical professional is infallible but in cases like this so many people will have looked at this boy and made the same conclusion. It’s not a directed assault against them but grief does funny funny things.

 

[Cack Conroe]

If he’s coned then life isn’t viable sadly. That would happen fairly quickly after he jumped/hanged/whatever the mum wants to say. Even if you could resurrect him he’d be beyond incredibly impaired, would have no quality of life and wouldn’t live for more than a few minutes without life support.

Unfortunately cases like this are starting to be more common as people have access to so much medical misinformation and our medical model moves towards a very American “patient knows best” style of relationship. Surprisingly people who went to university for 3/5/6/10 years tend to know a wee bit more about these things than Susan who’s worked in Morrisons her entire life but increasingly people believe they’re the correct party. Obviously no medical professional is infallible but in cases like this so many people will have looked at this boy and made the same conclusion. It’s not a directed assault against them but grief does funny funny things.

This is incredibly snobby.

Everyone has the right to be involved in making informed decisions about their own bodies. Including working class people.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

This is incredibly snobby.

Everyone has the right to be involved in making informed decisions about their own bodies. Including working class people.

Oh come on now. If you’re not medically trained in any way you don’t have the knowledge of the treatment options, the options available, how to administer them, what the side effects might be (that they don’t tell you about on google), how difficult the treatment would be, what the quality of life impact is, I could go on. It’s not a class issue so don’t try and make it one.

If you’d like, feel free to change that sentence to Susan who has never worked a day in her life because Daddy’s trust fund pays for her lifestyle and she’s never needed to.

 

[super grateful]

It seems the family’s hopes were initially raised by Southend hospital thinking that the London hospital Archie was transferred to could offer life-saving cranial decompression surgery. This surgery was never done. In the court judgements it says that it wasn’t done because Archie’s brain damage was too widespread. But on a human level I can totally understand the devastating effect of hopes being raised then dashed. I wonder if the hospitals failed to properly communicate that this surgery may not be possible.

Again, just from my own experience of currently working in a neuro ICU, we have patients transferred to us all the time for emergency surgery and when they get here the surgeons examine them further and decide they actually can’t operate. Before they arrive, the surgeons only have scans / verbal reports to go on so have to make a quick decision about whether or not the other hospital should quickly transfer them or not. And given he is so young they probably thought it was worth a shot. Transferring a critically ill person is a big deal and often they deteriorate further en route. Poor boy probably arrived, they did their own scans etc, checked his pupils, saw how much ventilation etc he was requiring and sadly decided he was beyond surgery.

It’s hard for the family because in their eyes they’re going to this other place to be saved and have everything fixed. But it’s just to be in the right place IF the chance of surgery IS an option. And I’m pretty sure that would have been communicated to them. Whatever anyone’s views on medical professionals, wherever they have come from, I’ve never met anyone who goes out of their way to snub a relative or leave them out of conversations / decision making and thinks they are better than anyone else, just has the relevant eduction and tools to make the correct and informed decisions.

They are asked why do the doctors say they don’t want to continue treatment, Ella answers that they say they don’t think it’s dignified, and that the staff feel uncomfortable treating him. If this is true, these are matters of personal opinion and I don’t think the personal feelings of staff should come into it. It’s inappropriate. The only valid reasons should be he definitely cannot survive and has no possible good experience of life (and probably no experience at all) and he’s artificially being kept alive.

I also don’t think the staff feeling “uncomfortable” is meant in the way you have interpreted it. It’s not that they don’t fancy it anymore. It’s not about the medical team at all, however their opinions must be taken into account as they are caring for him 24/7 and know that is medically best. There are many ethical and moral dilemmas to what is going on. Have you ever spent 13hrs administering medication to a decaying body knowing it’s not doing any good? Knowing it’s causing grief and trauma to the family? Knowing there is no “good” end goal for anyone involved is harrowing and ultimately just delaying the grieving process further. There is no dignity in that.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

Again, just from my own experience of currently working in a neuro ICU, we have patients transferred to us all the time for emergency surgery and when they get here the surgeons examine them further and decide they actually can’t operate. Before they arrive, the surgeons only have scans / verbal reports to go on so have to make a quick decision about whether or not the other hospital should quickly transfer them or not. And given he is so young they probably thought it was worth a shot. Transferring a critically ill person is a big deal and often they deteriorate further en route. Poor boy probably arrived, they did their own scans etc, checked his pupils, saw how much ventilation etc he was requiring and sadly decided he was beyond surgery.

It’s hard for the family because in their eyes they’re going to this other place to be saved and have everything fixed. But it’s just to be in the right place IF the chance of surgery IS an option. And I’m pretty sure that would have been communicated to them. Whatever anyone’s views on medical professionals, wherever they have come from, I’ve never met anyone who goes out of their way to snub a relative or leave them out of conversations / decision making and thinks they are better than anyone else, just has the relevant eduction and tools to make the correct and informed decisions.

I also don’t think the staff feeling “uncomfortable” is meant in the way you have interpreted it. It’s not that they don’t fancy it anymore. It’s not about the medical team at all, however their opinions must be taken into account as they are caring for him 24/7 and know that is medically best. There are many ethical and moral dilemmas to what is going on. Have you ever spent 13hrs administering medication to a decaying body knowing it’s not doing any good? Knowing it’s causing grief and trauma to the family? Knowing there is no “good” end goal for anyone involved is harrowing and ultimately just delaying the grieving process further. There is no dignity in that.

1000% agree with everything you’ve said. I’ve worked in a large regional cancer centre for over five years now and we get somewhat similar cases - someone wants treatment, their local cancer centre says no, they want a second opinion (absolutely as they should have), they come down to us and we say no too because actually it’s not going to help their cancer or make their life any better in anyway. It’s horrible and on the surface can feel flippant but the Drs have to be very good at recognising actual impact - both positive and negative - of a treatment pathway.

It’s always incredibly sad when this happens and I cannot for a second even fully comprehend the pain Ella is going through. It’s terribly sad to even think about the pain Archie was in to take this action and it’s even worse that his mum can’t accept his death and let him die with a little dignity. I don’t want you all to think I’m some heartless bastard - I’m not - but objectively the facts speak for themselves. Sadly I suspect there’s very little that can be said to Ella to change her mind or views on it and so it’ll just be a matter of riding the waves until the courts confirm that the machines can be turned off or he dies of another cause.

 

[Felix08]

Again, just from my own experience of currently working in a neuro ICU, we have patients transferred to us all the time for emergency surgery and when they get here the surgeons examine them further and decide they actually can’t operate. Before they arrive, the surgeons only have scans / verbal reports to go on so have to make a quick decision about whether or not the other hospital should quickly transfer them or not. And given he is so young they probably thought it was worth a shot. Transferring a critically ill person is a big deal and often they deteriorate further en route. Poor boy probably arrived, they did their own scans etc, checked his pupils, saw how much ventilation etc he was requiring and sadly decided he was beyond surgery.

It’s hard for the family because in their eyes they’re going to this other place to be saved and have everything fixed. But it’s just to be in the right place IF the chance of surgery IS an option. And I’m pretty sure that would have been communicated to them. Whatever anyone’s views on medical professionals, wherever they have come from, I’ve never met anyone who goes out of their way to snub a relative or leave them out of conversations / decision making and thinks they are better than anyone else, just has the relevant eduction and tools to make the correct and informed decisions.



I also don’t think the staff feeling “uncomfortable” is meant in the way you have interpreted it. It’s not that they don’t fancy it anymore. It’s not about the medical team at all, however their opinions must be taken into account as they are caring for him 24/7 and know that is medically best. There are many ethical and moral dilemmas to what is going on. Have you ever spent 13hrs administering medication to a decaying body knowing it’s not doing any good? Knowing it’s causing grief and trauma to the family? Knowing there is no “good” end goal for anyone involved is harrowing and ultimately just delaying the grieving process further. There is no dignity in that.

Agree, I work in hospital and there are many times that we question what we are doing is right or even ethical. There are many cases were we are expected to prolong treatment for family because they are not ready to let go yet fail to understand that we are prolonging suffering for the patients.

yes there are communications error In hospital, I dont deny that but there are also patients and families who dont listen, dont want to accept something, just dont agree and simply dont understand.

I do believe that this family falls in the dont agree, dont accept and dont understand category.

 

[bubbadabut]

I hate these vulture Christian groups which pounce on families going through these awful situations. Making vulnerable people convert to Christianity so they get free legal work, they make me sick. I've never understood this God thing. If it were down to God he would be dead, it's science that's keeping him alive.

I don't doubt that there are doctors who can be flippant and seem uncaring, but he has been assessed multiple times by people who are eminent in their field. When you are constantly being pressed by the family, their "army", this Christian Alliance and now the media, I'm not surprised if things have become fraught.

The scan reports make for grim reading. I can't imagine what the family must be going through, but there's no hope for this poor lad. I feel for the family but also the doctors and nurses, having to deal with the barrage of abuse (and worse) they will no doubt be getting because they are "killing" Archie.

 

[Felix08]

I hate these vulture Christian groups which pounce on families going through these awful situations. Making vulnerable people convert to Christianity so they get free legal work, they make me sick. I've never understood this God thing. If it were down to God he would be dead, it's science that's keeping him alive.

I don't doubt that there are doctors who can be flippant and seem uncaring, but he has been assessed multiple times by people who are eminent in their field. When you are constantly being pressed by the family, their "army", this Christian Alliance and now the media, I'm not surprised if things have become fraught.

The scan reports make for grim reading. I can't imagine what the family must be going through, but there's no hope for this poor lad. I feel for the family but also the doctors and nurses, having to deal with the barrage of abuse (and worse) they will no doubt be getting because they are "killing" Archie.

The family claim that the scans were not his, those claims make me really believe that his family and this army has an agenda.
If read many comments of people that say well doctors are wrong sometimes and they keep people in comas for years. A coma is not braindead. I think people really dont understand the difference.