Shamima Begum

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

I can't believe there are people actively campaigning to bring her back and or supporting her in coming back. I honestly do not care what happens to her. She should've been left in Syria to be locked up in a hell hole. I have not a single ounce of sympathy for her.

Intelligence services must know something that they are not willing to share, maybe it compromises an asset. It must be really bad if this is the outcome

 

[emm]

I bleeping despise her! She's smug and sanctimonious. That doesn't stop her being a British problem.
The US has taken all of its jihadis back. Do you think they're roaming the streets? No. We need to have processes in place to actually deal with this stuff rather than acting like it's not our problem and trying to foist it onto someone else. Bangladesh has it's own problems to deal with.
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Who's to say what that reason is though? That 'reason' could be anything whoever is the Home Secretary of the week wants. They'll just say its top secret and be done with it.

Exactly, we need to deal with our legal system rather than just revoke citizenship and then pay God knows how much for the endless appeals

 

[Polythene Pam]

I can't believe there are people actively campaigning to bring her back and or supporting her in coming back. I honestly do not care what happens to her. She should've been left in Syria to be locked up in a hell hole. I have not a single ounce of sympathy for her.

Intelligence services must know something that they are not willing to share, maybe it compromises an asset. It must be really bad if this is the outcome

So bad she isn't guilty of any crime?
If she really is dangerous we should be putting her in jail. If we don't have laws in place to do so, we should make them.

 

[stunrw]

I really don't understand why it is though or why so many people seem to be scared of her. What possible threat could she pose now?

The Security Services in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) maybe have a different view, likely backed up by intel that would make you want move to a different universe.

 

[Merpedy]

Shamima Begum ruling sets dangerous precedent, say legal experts | Shamima Begum | The Guardian
(from 2021 just for context)

But the justices add that the home secretary’s decision should also be respected because they are ultimately “democratically accountable” – and if the electorate disagree with them, they can be re-elected or removed.

In presenting their ruling, the justices cite the views of a former lord justice of appeal, Lord Hoffmann: “It is not only that the executive has access to special information and expertise in these matters.

“It is also that such decisions, with serious potential results for the community, require a legitimacy which can be conferred only by entrusting them to persons responsible to the community through the democratic process. If the people are to accept the consequences of such decisions, they must be made by persons whom the people have elected and whom they can remove.”

I see this as such a flawed argument as ultimately the public don't know what danger she poses, if any. It really comes down to "we don't like this person" for the electorate who essentially replace the courts on accountability in this little arrangement

 

[Polythene Pam]

The Security Services in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) maybe have a different view, likely backed up by intel that would make you want move to a different universe.

Again I'll ask, she's done things that are soooooo bad but also aren't crimes she can be prosecuted for?
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Shamima Begum ruling sets dangerous precedent, say legal experts | Shamima Begum | The Guardian
(from 2021 just for context)



I see this as such a flawed argument as ultimately the public don't know what danger she poses, if any. It really comes down to "we don't like this person" for the electorate who essentially replace the courts on accountability in this little arrangement

The reasoning today was very strange indeed. I'll be interested to see what happens with the appeal.

 

[Glaschelle]

Anyone that thinks the government should be able to remove a person's citizen and not give them the ability to appeal (including the legal aid to do so) needs to give their head a wobble.
It starts with people like Shamima Begum, an unlikeable easy target, and could end up being any one of us.
For those of us that have dual nationality it's setting a dangerous precedent. She's a British problem whether we like it or not. The British exceptionalism that thinks it should be Bangladesh's problem is insane.
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It sounds an awful lot like the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction if you ask me...
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She was 15 when they got married and could not consent. So she was raped.

Totally agree with everything you say.

Especially agree that stripping people of citizenship starts with Shamima Begun and God knows where it ends!

I do not consider myself to be some bleeding heart Liberal. I can often be found tutting at news stories and thinking if you had a job you wouldn't have time to worry about your pronouns.

But come on, this lassie is the Uks problem and we need to deal with her - this is the bottom.line!!!

And - if she doesn't fall under the heading of being a sex traffic victim, how come that lassie Prince Andrew paid off does???

We can't be sympathetic to young lassies in this county who get ensared by gangs and not offer the same sympathy to this one.

And no, I canny believe I'm defending her either. Must be getting soft in my old age.

 

[Django]

The Security Services in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) maybe have a different view, likely backed up by intel that would make you want move to a different universe.

I don't live in the UK but do tell about your secret intel...

 

[Moth]

@Moth Thank you for, far more eloquently than I could have done, for articulating the matters at hand here that Jay J ruled on earlier.
Not had the time to pick through all 76 pages of the full judgement yet

Great comments @Moth thanks very much.

Thank you both. I read about half of the judgement this morning but even for someone who enjoys reading these things it's dense stuff, dissecting tiny legal points. I skimmed the second part until I got to the decisions on her individual grounds for appeal. It certainly looks like her legal team threw the kitchen sink at it.

I seems to me that the issue for any appeal to higher courts is primarily going to be that Home Secretary should have given weight (I was going to say more weight but it appears he gave none at all) to the argument that she was a child, radicalised and trafficked for sexual exploitation and that the authorities failed to protect her. SIAC appears to accept that this is likely but says it has no power to overrule the Home Sec's decision on that basis. That might ultimately end up in the ECHR (after the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court).

 

[Polythene Pam]

She also may not have done anything, that's the general problem with the lack of transparency and Minister discretion when it comes to these things

It was a populist move because the public dislike her. A quick win.
Imagine if we dished out all justice based on public opinion. It'd be a scary place to live.
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The Security Services in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) maybe have a different view, likely backed up by intel that would make you want move to a different universe.

The US security services have been very clear for a number of years that they think the UK's policy of revoking people's citizenship and not actually dealing with the issue is a security risk to everyone.

 

[Moth]

... Especially agree that stripping people of citizenship starts with Shamima Begun and God knows where it ends! ...

Except that it doesn't 'begin' with Shamima Begum. She is one of hundreds that have lost their citizenship. She has simply received more publicity than any of the others because it was a big news story from the moment she left the country.

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

Totally agree with everything you say.

Especially agree that stripping people of citizenship starts with Shamima Begun and God knows where it ends!

I do not consider myself to be some bleeding heart Liberal. I can often be found tutting at news stories and thinking if you had a job you wouldn't have time to worry about your pronouns.

But come on, this lassie is the Uks problem and we need to deal with her - this is the bottom.line!!!

And - if she doesn't fall under the heading of being a sex traffic victim, how come that lassie Prince Andrew paid off does???

We can't be sympathetic to young lassies in this county who get ensared by gangs and not offer the same sympathy to this one.

And no, I canny believe I'm defending her either. Must be getting soft in my old age.

Come on now, if people are going to be commenting on the thread the least you can do is read it. Several hundred people over the years have already had their citizenship stripped for similar offences.

They don't just strip it for shits and giggles but people who pose a serious risk
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The US security services have been very clear for a number of years that they think the UK's policy of revoking people's citizenship and not actually dealing with the issue is a security risk to everyone.

And why should we give two shits what Americans think? Do you really believe they are the world police

 

[stunrw]

[

I don't live in the UK but do tell about your secret intel...

Nor do I. However in my professional life I vaguely understand how these things work.

Secret Intel? It's the security agencies of whatever country literally doing their jobs. Unless you are in the US, where SCI paperwork can be found in a country club in Florida (I'm joking before there is a pile-on) you won't and never will find out what they know!

I'm not getting into an argument here, but sometimes it needs to be accepted that things are active in the background that nobody will find out about.

If you read my post earlier; there are 2 versions of the judgement. One for public release and one that is for people, probably with a very high level of clearance.

In a case like this, it will never be in the public interest to disclose

 

[Polythene Pam]

Come on now, if people are going to be commenting on the thread the least you can do is read it. Several hundred people over the years have already had their citizenship stripped for similar offences.

They don't just strip it for shits and giggles but people who pose a serious risk
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And why should we give two shits what Americans think? Do you really believe they are the world police

For what it's worth I said it starts with people LIKE Shamima Begum, i.e. unpopular people that did something indefensible... the fact that this is becoming a common policy, and that the government has got the public crying out in support of it is SCARY.

 

[annanuttall]

What happened to her friends who travelled with her?

 

[Polythene Pam]

Come on now, if people are going to be commenting on the thread the least you can do is read it. Several hundred people over the years have already had their citizenship stripped for similar offences.

They don't just strip it for shits and giggles but people who pose a serious risk
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And why should we give two shits what Americans think? Do you really believe they are the world police

We give a tit what America thinks when we want to be their allies. They take national security a lot more seriously than we do.
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What happened to her friends who travelled with her?

Both killed in Syria.

 

[stunrw]

Thank you both. I read about half of the judgement this morning but even for someone who enjoys reading these things it's dense stuff, dissecting tiny legal points. I skimmed the second part until I got to the decisions on her individual grounds for appeal. It certainly looks like her legal team threw the kitchen sink at it.

I seems to me that the issue for any appeal to higher courts is primarily going to be that Home Secretary should have given weight (I was going to say more weight but it appears he gave none at all) to the argument that she was a child, radicalised and trafficked for sexual exploitation and that the authorities failed to protect her. SIAC appears to accept that this is likely but says it has no power to overrule the Home Sec's decision on that basis. That might ultimately end up in the ECHR (after the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court).

@Moth thank you being a voice of reason this evening

Thank you both. I read about half of the judgement this morning but even for someone who enjoys reading these things it's dense stuff, dissecting tiny legal points. I skimmed the second part until I got to the decisions on her individual grounds for appeal. It certainly looks like her legal team threw the kitchen sink at it.

I seems to me that the issue for any appeal to higher courts is primarily going to be that Home Secretary should have given weight (I was going to say more weight but it appears he gave none at all) to the argument that she was a child, radicalised and trafficked for sexual exploitation and that the authorities failed to protect her. SIAC appears to accept that this is likely but says it has no power to overrule the Home Sec's decision on that basis. That might ultimately end up in the ECHR (after the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court).

One of my colleagues has read the whole thing and said it is very complicated and a strong drink is advised during the process

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

We give a tit what America thinks when we want to be their allies. They take national security a lot more seriously than we do.
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Both killed in Syria.

No you might do. I'm going to go check if you comment in the conspiracy theory threads because I'm getting that vibe

 

[Campari]

stripping people of citizenship starts with Shamima Begun and God knows where it ends!

It starts and ends at leaving people who left the country to become a terrorist to face the consequences of their own actions.
She saw no remorse and has been trained to say the right things to downplay her terrorism.
She knew what she was getting into.

 

[Polythene Pam]

No you might do. I'm going to go check if you comment in the conspiracy theory threads because I'm getting that vibe

Aaah yes, the great concern for human rights and national security conspiracy