Shamima Begum

[Merpedy]

“Groomed”, “trafficked”, “unwitting”, “just another victim”. All highly emotive words and phrases designed specifically to minimise her personal responsibility for the decisions she made.

If she was “groomed online” then by definition she had access to the internet. And I’m sorry but she would have to be living under a rock, or be as thick as pigshit, to not know exactly ISIS were, and exactly what her role in the organisation would be. I spent twenty years sat in interview rooms listening to guilty as sin criminals of all shapes and sizes whining some sort of derivative of “I’m the REAL victim here”. Bullshit then and bullshit now.

A religious bigot who if history had worked out differently would now be quite happy in Raqqa raising her sons to hate you.

I'm going to drop this story here as I've seen people elsewhere discussing that it's interesting that our approach to these two cases is very different but also shows that grooming and radicalisation are issues beyond just "you were thick enough to believe it"

UK schoolgirl who faced terror charges is ‘wake-up call about grooming’

Charges against Rhianan Rudd, then 15, were dropped after evidence proved she had been groomed online by rightwing extremists

www.theguardian.com

 

[monga]

I'm going to drop this story here as I've seen people elsewhere discussing that it's interesting that our approach to these two cases is very different but also shows that grooming and radicalisation are issues beyond just "you were thick enough to believe it"

UK schoolgirl who faced terror charges is ‘wake-up call about grooming’

Charges against Rhianan Rudd, then 15, were dropped after evidence proved she had been groomed online by rightwing extremists

www.theguardian.com

She was living with an extremist , Begum sought out her radicalisation.

 

[Merpedy]

Another case, a woman who converted to Islam and seems to have been radicalised on online forums:

https://www.counterextremism.com/extremists/lisa-smith

How was Lisa Smith radicalised?

"When people get involved in ISIS, a lot of the time we're looking at identity"

www.rte.ie

It's always interesting that when I look for how a typical radicalisation process may work, there seems to be a real lack of solid information or what the process may be expected to look like, unless you want to go into academic articles. The second article sort of mentions the vulnerability factors but it's still a leap from believing in Islam (which has to be part of the process if you end up joining ISIS) to joining an extremist group

 

[NeverEnough]

An established way out for Ms Begum

Canada to repatriate British-born 'Jihadi Jack' along with 22 others held in Syria

Jack Letts, who was stripped of his UK citizenship in 2019 after fleeing to Syria to allegedly become an Islamic State fighter, is thought to be among the group to be repatriated.

news.sky.com

She is now effectively a citizen of Bangladesh. And Bangladesh is effectively in breach of international law by refusing her. It is surely the perfect solution. She gets to live in a majority Muslim country which is her dearest wish. And no need to be squeamish about the potential death sentence for terrorism as

a. She has told us several times she wasn’t a terrorist, just a housewife, and
b. Once again Sharia Law is her fondest wish.

 

[Merpedy]

I hadn't listened to the podcast before, I have just started on the second series, I don't really get it. She says her mum took her to the bus stop (unlesss I have misunderstood) and didn't say anything as she went away... does this sound like a mother letting a child go to a study group? It sounds like a disappointed mother knowing what their child was doing but begrudgingly supporting them surely? I do not at all agree with her citizenship being taken away but it seems liek her family have had a huge influence on her and partly explains her actions

I just started the podcast today and what struck me is her describing the list being left behind as a "stupid" mistake made by a friend. I sort of understand where she is coming from but also... it's not really reflecting the gravity of the situation and seemingly deflecting any blame for planning to her friends who can't really be blamed or defend themselves

RE her describing her last interaction, I think it's heavily influenced by the fact that she knew where she was going so sees the situation as a lot less normal than her mother may have done at the time. I think she says that she would have made the goodbye a bit more 'special' had she known she would never see her again, but like... did she think she would happily Facetime her mother once she arrived? I know teenagers aren't the smartest, and if she has been radicalised there's probably a level of delusion involved, but at the same time I think she would have been aware of the risks, especially if she was being told to hide her tracks constantly

I read a chapter on radicalised Jihadi brides in some other country and the author made a whole point of the fact that the radicalised people involved were constantly very aware that the government was against them and that they had to be secretive. One interesting point was that the moment the leader of the group realised that someone was a massive security risk to the group, they just got kicked out of the group. With the amount of planning involved in this, I'm guessing it's a similar approach. I was wondering whether it was unusual to have a group of friends radicalised and move

 

[emm]

I just started the podcast today and what struck me is her describing the list being left behind as a "stupid" mistake made by a friend. I sort of understand where she is coming from but also... it's not really reflecting the gravity of the situation and seemingly deflecting any blame for planning to her friends who can't really be blamed or defend themselves

RE her describing her last interaction, I think it's heavily influenced by the fact that she knew where she was going so sees the situation as a lot less normal than her mother may have done at the time. I think she says that she would have made the goodbye a bit more 'special' had she known she would never see her again, but like... did she think she would happily Facetime her mother once she arrived? I know teenagers aren't the smartest, and if she has been radicalised there's probably a level of delusion involved, but at the same time I think she would have been aware of the risks, especially if she was being told to hide her tracks constantly

I read a chapter on radicalised Jihadi brides in some other country and the author made a whole point of the fact that the radicalised people involved were constantly very aware that the government was against them and that they had to be secretive. One interesting point was that the moment the leader of the group realised that someone was a massive security risk to the group, they just got kicked out of the group. With the amount of planning involved in this, I'm guessing it's a similar approach. I was wondering whether it was unusual to have a group of friends radicalised and move

true, but is it usual to walk a 15 year old to a bustop though? Or I guess maybe for her family it was, I have so many questions!

 

[Moth]

An established way out for Ms Begum

Canada to repatriate British-born 'Jihadi Jack' along with 22 others held in Syria

Jack Letts, who was stripped of his UK citizenship in 2019 after fleeing to Syria to allegedly become an Islamic State fighter, is thought to be among the group to be repatriated.

news.sky.com

She is now effectively a citizen of Bangladesh. And Bangladesh is effectively in breach of international law by refusing her. It is surely the perfect solution. She gets to live in a majority Muslim country which is her dearest wish. And no need to be squeamish about the potential death sentence for terrorism as

a. She has told us several times she wasn’t a terrorist, just a housewife, and
b. Once again Sharia Law is her fondest wish.

There is certainly an argument that she's a Bangladeshi citizen although the Bangladeshi government has always denied it (they would wouldn't they). However I am not sure that there is any 'international law' that she could rely on to force them to accept her.

 

[NeverEnough]

There is certainly an argument that she's a Bangladeshi citizen although the Bangladeshi government has always denied it (they would wouldn't they). However I am not sure that there is any 'international law' that she could rely on to force them to accept her.

Yep. I'm quoting the same imaginary international law that her supporters quote when they argue she shouldn't have lost her citizenship in the first place.

 

[Moth]

Yep. I'm quoting the same imaginary international law that her supporters quote when they argue she shouldn't have lost her citizenship in the first place.

The 'imaginary' (although of course very real) international law that some might cite as evidence that Shamim Begum was wrongly deprived of her British citizenship is presumably the 1954 and1961UNHCR Conventions relating to the status of Stateless Persons and perhaps Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights. The UK government's position, upheld by SIAC is that she was not made stateless because she also held Bangladeshi citizenship at the time of the decision.

However the problem with the suggestion that those same international laws could be used to force Bangladesh to give or confirm citizenship to Shamim Begum is that Bangladesh is of course not covered by the ECHR and is not a signatory to either UNHCR Convention not least because it didn't exist at the time. As it happens neither is Pakistan on whose law most of the Bangladeshi nationality law is based.

 

[Warpaint]

Anyone watch the 90 minute BBC documentary on her? You can tell she's been well media trained since the 2019 interviews. She comes across as clear, concise and almost personable.

However the fact remains we still know next to nothing about her 4 years in ISIS. She reveals very little and is sticking with the Housewife narrative. Yet she admits being a member and takes full responsibility for it all. Her husband doesn't give anything away either. She should stay where she is and she knows that's what she deserves.

 

[Salted Caramel]

Anyone watch the 90 minute BBC documentary on her? You can tell she's been well media trained since the 2019 interviews. She comes across as clear, concise and almost personable.

However the fact remains we still know next to nothing about her 4 years in ISIS. She reveals very little and is sticking with the Housewife narrative. Yet she admits being a member and takes full responsibility for it all. Her husband doesn't give anything away either. She should stay where she is and she knows that's what she deserves.

I've been listening to the podcast, tbh I hadn't even noticed the documentary was on BBC two tonight, feels like they buried it. Watching it on iPlayer now.

I have such mixed feelings about Begum. She seems to be enjoying the limelight, the way she smiled at times during the documentary tonight made that clear. But I can't get away from the fact she was fifteen. In the UK when you are fifteen you are found to incapable of making decisions by law. ISIS was / is utterly abhorrent but I am not convinced she truly knew what she was getting into, other than being an immature 15 year old who wanted to be popular and "honestly felt relieved" to leave the UK. I feel like that needs to be explored more.

God knows what to do with her though. I listened to the first season of the podcast about the American woman. Begum probably needs to be returned to this county and tried for terrorism. Whether we like it or not. But then again, the crimes she committed were in Syria, so she should be tried and imprisoned in Syria? (slightly off topic, were the camps of ppl like her affected by the earthquakes this week?)

I do find it interesting that the recent coverage of the young girl who took her own life after her conviction for far right terrorism didn't get anywhere like the level of hysterical reporting and commentary as this one.

 

[Merpedy]

what was very interesting from the podcast which I haven’t seen discussed is that she says she was radicalised by another friend who had ran away first and it sounded like that friend introduced her into the pro-ISIS online space. It’s also why she had the idea that she would be in constant contact with her mum without any problems

I always thought of it as her willingly going to seek out that content and online spaces herself but there is a dynamic when it’s someone you consider to be a close friend, and of course it becomes far far easier to actually land yourself in a very radicalised space

Granted, the way she was talking about the friend still had me a bit unsure of whether she was almost deflecting any sort of criticism, but it seems a bit twisted to be expecting someone who had been radicalised to take responsibility for being radicalised

 

[Salted Caramel]

what was very interesting from the podcast which I haven’t seen discussed is that she says she was radicalised by another friend who had ran away first and it sounded like that friend introduced her into the pro-ISIS online space. It’s also why she had the idea that she would be in constant contact with her mum without any problems

I always thought of it as her willingly going to seek out that content and online spaces herself but there is a dynamic when it’s someone you consider to be a close friend, and of course it becomes far far easier to actually land yourself in a very radicalised space

Granted, the way she was talking about the friend still had me a bit unsure of whether she was almost deflecting any sort of criticism, but it seems a bit twisted to be expecting someone who had been radicalised to take responsibility for being radicalised

Absolutely. As the one guy in the documentary tonight said, if Sharmeema hadn't gone to Syria, then Shamina, Kadija and Amira probably wouldn't have either. They were 15/16 years old and had grown up in a western world in the shadow of 9/11 and 7/7. She says in the documentary that she felt "oppressed" and admits that was probably an overreaction, due to being a teenager.

I can't even begin to imagine where your head is at at 15 to "run away from home" to a foreign country that is a warzone.

 

[NeverEnough]

Absolutely. As the one guy in the documentary tonight said, if Sharmeema hadn't gone to Syria, then Shamina, Kadija and Amira probably wouldn't have either. They were 15/16 years old and had grown up in a western world in the shadow of 9/11 and 7/7. She says in the documentary that she felt "oppressed" and admits that was probably an overreaction, due to being a teenager.

I can't even begin to imagine where your head is at at 15 to "run away from home" to a foreign country that is a warzone.

So she felt “oppressed“ because a bunch of murderous terrorists, ostensibly acting in the name of HER religion, flew planes into buildings full of living people, and then put bombs onto underground trains in the rush hour. Then to deal with this oppression she chose to leave her home to join a group who have very similar, if not more extreme, goals to the terrorists. And her justification/excuse for this? “I was a teenager”.

Now I am not feeling even the slightest glint of sympathy. Stupid little girl.

 

[Merpedy]

So she felt “oppressed“ because a bunch of murderous terrorists, ostensibly acting in the name of HER religion, flew planes into buildings full of living people, and then put bombs onto underground trains in the rush hour. Then to deal with this oppression she chose to leave her home to join a group who have very similar, if not more extreme, goals to the terrorists. And her justification/excuse for this? “I was a teenager”.

Now I am not feeling even the slightest glint of sympathy. Stupid little girl.

This is a bit of a wild take. Terrorist attacks did cause a lot of anti-Muslim rhetoric which would naturally cause people to feel oppressed and excluded from society in some ways. It’s also not very nice when those views are being supported by tabloids and politicians

Take that, mix in a friend who has left and is telling you that this Muslim country is super accepting of you as a Muslim and those beheading videos/stories are not fake, and it’s not hard to see how radicalisation takes place. Also worth noting that the majority of ISIS propaganda was about how nice and accepting they were - I think the podcast mentioned that it’s a very small portion of propaganda that was violent but the public only heard about it because it grabbed headlines

 

[IngressUK]

So she felt “oppressed“ because a bunch of murderous terrorists, ostensibly acting in the name of HER religion, flew planes into buildings full of living people, and then put bombs onto underground trains in the rush hour. Then to deal with this oppression she chose to leave her home to join a group who have very similar, if not more extreme, goals to the terrorists. And her justification/excuse for this? “I was a teenager”.

Now I am not feeling even the slightest glint of sympathy. Stupid little girl.

I expect the people sticking up for Shamima because 'she was only 15 at the time'', will next be sticking up for the equally despicable Jon Venables because 'he was only 10 years old at the time'. The fact of the matter was Shamina was over the age of culpability when he decided to leave the UK to join ISIS. So there really are no excuses whatsoever for her actions - she was old enough to know better in the eyes of the law.

She has made her bed, she can bloody well die in it as far as I'm concerned. No one of sensible mind wants her back in this country. It is only the same (usual) suspects out there whom are more concerned about the human rights of the criminal over everyone else in society- including victims and their relatives - who wants her back in the UK.

It is high time that these people stop kowtowing to the undeserved like Shamina and spare a thought for the victims of her involvement instead.

What on earth were the BBC thinking of giving airtime to this odious ***** in the first place?

What next? A documentary trying to excuse and justify the actions of Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain? Knowing the BBC nowadays, I wouldn't put it past them!

 

[NeverEnough]

This is a bit of a wild take. Terrorist attacks did cause a lot of anti-Muslim rhetoric which would naturally cause people to feel oppressed and excluded from society in some ways. It’s also not very nice when those views are being supported by tabloids and politicians

Take that, mix in a friend who has left and is telling you that this Muslim country is super accepting of you as a Muslim and those beheading videos/stories are not fake, and it’s not hard to see how radicalisation takes place. Also worth noting that the majority of ISIS propaganda was about how nice and accepting they were - I think the podcast mentioned that it’s a very small portion of propaganda that was violent but the public only heard about it because it grabbed headlines

2996 innocent people died on 9/11. And an additional 56 died on 7/7 and your take on that is that it caused “rhetoric” and “exclusion”? Anyone who does not recoil in absolute horror at these events? Well the least they deserve is “harsh rhetoric”.

“Sorry if a harsh editorial has hurt your feelings, but I just witnessed dozens of people fall from the top floor of the WTC so y’know I’m feeling a little oppressed too”.

Begum was not only not repulsed but she ran away to join a group that had very similar aims and methods. Can you tell me how this doesn’t make her a complete sociopath?

 

[Merpedy]

Yes let’s blame the radicalised people to the point where they don’t deserve basic rights and excuse Islamophobia

No one seems to be saying she’s a 100% innocent, and the chance is that she would face some type of punishment on return for her actions during her time with ISIS

 

[Warpaint]

Yes let’s blame the radicalised people to the point where they don’t deserve basic rights and excuse Islamophobia

No one seems to be saying she’s a 100% innocent, and the chance is that she would face some type of punishment on return for her actions during her time with ISIS

She needs to start with being honest about what happened over there.

 

[Merpedy]

She needs to start with being honest about what happened over there.

But how does anyone decide when she is being honest and when she is not?

I have criticised the way she has talked about her experience but that’s because I personally would like her to take more responsibility. Yet what if that is her actual truth and she is being honest? Who is to decide?

If she changes her narrative completely to fit what she thinks the public want - is that honesty?

There’s also no expectancy from the government to say why they specifically think she is a danger, just something about them having documents which very few select people have seen. Now I’m not saying they’re lying, but our prevent policy with schools seems to be based on the very same Islamophobia and lack of real evidence of any extremism actually going on