Shamima Begum

[NeverEnough]

I think it’s strange they keep pushing her to the media .I thought they liked to keep themselves / ways private

The media always has an agenda and in this case they appear to be trying to present Begum soon some sort of sympathetic figure who somehow wasn’t responsible for her own life choices and has suffered through deaths of children. Children fathered by a convicted terrorist. The argument pretty much always starts with “she was only 15”, as if a 15 year somehow doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong. And then continues with vague allegations of “online grooming“. Although the evidence seems to suggest she sought out IS videos, discussed it with her three friends, an meticulously planned her journey, even stealing from her own family. So a very high functioning nose lead thought zombie then.

And to address the elephant in the room she is certainly not the only mother to have lost young children, even multiple children. And whilst acknowledging her undoubted grief at this, I will not become voluntarily stupid and pretend that her own decisions didn’t play a major role in contributing to the death of her own children. A tip for all expectant mothers out there, if you value the health of your baby it is not a good idea to elect to live in a war zone.

Shamima Begum used to live in the UK where she enjoyed free education, free healthcare, and personal, religious and political freedoms which are enshrined in law, and a quality of life where even the bottom 10% of citizens enjoy incomes which rank them in the top 10% worldwide. She chose to abandon all this because she wanted to live a Muslim lifestyle as this was the most important thing to her. So go to Bangladesh and live your bleeping dream….

 

[Sketchy]

I can say - hand on heart - I don't care what happens to this creature.

 

[Tangent Tiger]

I can say - hand on heart - I don't care what happens to this creature.

It's difficult isn't it.

I think it has to be treated dispassionally and by the law to a T.

 

[hellothere_]

I think it’s a hard one. 15 is a child, they don’t have the mental capacity to really understand things the way a 35 year old would. When I was 15, I knew right from wrong but I didn’t understand how things impacted other people/myself/my future. I made a few mistakes when I was 15 (not as bad as joining a terrorist organisation though), and those silly choices I made I would NEVER make now as a fully grown adult in my late 20’s. She must have understood to a certain extent of what she was doing as at the time it was all over the news ect.

If she didn’t understand what she was doing fully, that doesn’t excuse what she has done. There is very little grey area in this case, as allowing her back into the country opens the flood gates for everyone else who joined ISIS and poses a huge threat for the security of the UK as you can never really believe what she now says as she’s lost all credibility. If a child was groomed in another way, people would probably pitty on that child but because of what she was (suspected) groomed into, it’s hard to have any empathy. Maybe she has changed, maybe she hasn’t but I think it was best she was never allowed back into the UK. It’s all the victims of ISIS and the people of Syria ect that I have empathy for, along with her 3 children that sadly passed.

 

[HockyRorror]

I think it’s a hard one. 15 is a child, they don’t have the mental capacity to really understand things the way a 35 year old would. When I was 15, I knew right from wrong but I didn’t understand how things impacted other people/myself/my future. I made a few mistakes when I was 15 (not as bad as joining a terrorist organisation though), and those silly choices I made I would NEVER make now as a fully grown adult in my late 20’s.

Should people under 35 never be arrested or tried on court for anything then by that logic!?
There’s a huge difference between shoplifting something on a whim (or even planning to shoplift) and joining a well-known terrorist organisation halfway across the world, and made plans to sneak over and fly there. Wasn’t it a no-flight zone at that point and people that entered the territory had to fly into one country, travel through another and then sneak across a border?

If a 15 year old is capable of that, then they’re old enough to face the consequences. I’m almost 20 years older than that and if someone suggested that I sneak into another country illegally I wouldn’t have a clue how to go about it unless I specifically looked it up and made plans.

 

[crossroads]

Should people under 35 never be arrested or tried on court for anything then by that logic!?
There’s a huge difference between shoplifting something on a whim (or even planning to shoplift) and joining a well-known terrorist organisation halfway across the world, and made plans to sneak over and fly there. Wasn’t it a no-flight zone at that point and people that entered the territory had to fly into one country, travel through another and then sneak across a border?

If a 15 year old is capable of that, then they’re old enough to face the consequences. I’m almost 20 years older than that and if someone suggested that I sneak into another country illegally I wouldn’t have a clue how to go about it unless I specifically looked it up and made plans.

They should be arrested and tried, but there is a reason why children and teenagers cannot be held accountable for crimes in the same way that adults can be - the parts of the brain that are responsible for decision making - amygdala and the frontal lobe - are not developed in teenagers and take until your mid-twenties to mature. I'm sure there's an in-between solution where teenagers are arrested and tried, but developmental factors are taken into account more than they are with adults. Neither of us would know how to sneak across a border because we have not encountered somebody who groomed us or that at that vulnerable stage of life when somebody is biologically less capable of understanding risks, threats, and the consequences of their actions and has not yet developed critical thinking skills.

Obviously, joining ISIS is a pretty extreme case that's not comparable to shoplifting or another petty crime.

 

[HockyRorror]

They should be arrested and tried, but there is a reason why children and teenagers cannot be held accountable for crimes in the same way that adults can be - the parts of the brain that are responsible for decision making - amygdala and the frontal lobe - are not developed in teenagers and take until your mid-twenties to mature. I'm sure there's an in-between solution where teenagers are arrested and tried, but developmental factors are taken into account more than they are with adults. Neither of us would know how to sneak across a border because we have not encountered somebody who groomed us or that at that vulnerable stage of life when somebody is biologically less capable of understanding risks, threats, and the consequences of their actions and has not yet developed critical thinking skills.

Obviously, joining ISIS is a pretty extreme case that's not comparable to shoplifting or another petty crime.

The last part was kind of my point. 15 year olds do stupid things they might not do at 35 or even 25, like shoplifting, getting into fights, generally being public nuisances with their mates. They can and should IMO, be tried fully for something like flying halfway across the world to join a terrorist organisation which anyone sane would have known at that point they are famous for their brutality. I haven’t seen anything to suggest she is not certified as a sane person.

 

[Whatamadworld]

Very difficult to believe that she didn't know who ISIS were and what they were planning. I would have believed her more if she had said she met a guy online who charmed her, then she was naive to travel there, only to find out what he did and she wasn't allowed to leave.

But didn't she say she met the guy knowing he was a member of ISIS? A quick google would have likely brought up what they were upto. I can believe she was disensitised to seeing severed heads in bins as after a while I probably would be too.

 

[EllenDeGenerate]

I have zero sympathy for her - I remember her saying she was not bothered by seeing severed heads in bins. Speaks volumes about her character, that.

 

[emm]

Very difficult to believe that she didn't know who ISIS were and what they were planning. I would have believed her more if she had said she met a guy online who charmed her, then she was naive to travel there, only to find out what he did and she wasn't allowed to leave.

But didn't she say she met the guy knowing he was a member of ISIS? A quick google would have likely brought up what they were upto. I can believe she was disensitised to seeing severed heads in bins as after a while I probably would be too.

I think honestly her parents should also have some blame, I would assume they never spoke to their children about ISIS or anythign like that (obviously I am speculating but that is how it seems to me, I worked in a field dealing with parents in this situation)
I agree I think it is unfair she could come back, but I also think stripping a UK citizen of their citizenship is totally wrong and opens up a really dangerous precedent for god knows what in the future. We only have to look at the Windrush situation to see this

 

[NeverEnough]

You would have had to have been living under a rock with no access to any sort of online news for 15 years to not know who ISIS were. And if her supporters are arguing that she was a victim of online grooming then that was clearly not the case. She can’t be both online active and a completely isolated innocent simultaneously.

So I hope that this “she didn’t know” shite is nipped in the bud. She knew EXACTLY who ISIS were IMO. And she went to join them anyway. And the only explanation i can think of for that is that she joined them because she agreed with their goals. Which suggests to me that she is an extremely dangerous individual and an extreme religious bigot.

Does anyone remember when Samantha Lewthwaite, The White Widow, told BBC news she had “no idea” what her husband was up to? Exhibit A.

 

[Glaschelle]

I think honestly her parents should also have some blame, I would assume they never spoke to their children about ISIS or anythign like that (obviously I am speculating but that is how it seems to me, I worked in a field dealing with parents in this situation)
I agree I think it is unfair she could come back, but I also think stripping a UK citizen of their citizenship is totally wrong and opens up a really dangerous precedent for god knows what in the future. We only have to look at the Windrush situation to see this

I honestly think her parents bear a lot of responsibility here. Wouldn’t surprise me if the family were sympathetic to the isis cause.

Personally I think she looked at a romanticised videos of the situation and that's what she was attracted to. But you would have to have been a complete idiot not to know what Isis was doing.

But i totally disagree with stripping her of her citizenship and agree it sets a dangerous precedent.

If there is evidence against her get her back in the country and prosecute her. I really feel that Britain is trying to push this problem onto another country, rather than trying to find a solution.

 

[Warpaint]

How come this is suddenly popping up again? Is she close to returning?

 

[NeverEnough]

I honestly think her parents bear a lot of responsibility here. Wouldn’t surprise me if the family were sympathetic to the isis cause.

Personally I think she looked at a romanticised videos of the situation and that's what she was attracted to. But you would have to have been a complete idiot not to know what Isis was doing.

But i totally disagree with stripping her of her citizenship and agree it sets a dangerous precedent.

If there is evidence against her get her back in the country and prosecute her. I really feel that Britain is trying to push this problem onto another country, rather than trying to find a solution.

I do wonder why so much fuss is made of Begum being stripped of her citizenship, and why Jack Letts, who went under the same process, is hardly ever mentioned.

Jack Letts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Both are not stateless and have reverted to there dual citizenships, Letts Canada and Begum Bangladesh. And surely Begum got the best deal as her citizenship is now in a majority Muslim country which practices the Sharia, which was her fondest wish, whilst Letts has citizenship of yet another Western decadent hellhole, which he ran away to ISIS to escape from. Not seeing how Begum was treated unfairly there?

Of course I lie. I know exactly why Begum is fawned over in some quarters. And it’s because there are many more virtue points to be scored from seemingly supporting the poor little brown girl who is the “real victim” than the prosperous middle glass white guy who “had all the privileges and threw them away”. Even though their situation is for all purposes indentical.

My parents generation used to be guilty of casual racism. My daughters generation are equally guilty of casual hypocrisy.

 

[Moth]

I honestly think her parents bear a lot of responsibility here. Wouldn’t surprise me if the family were sympathetic to the isis cause.

Personally I think she looked at a romanticised videos of the situation and that's what she was attracted to. But you would have to have been a complete idiot not to know what Isis was doing.

But i totally disagree with stripping her of her citizenship and agree it sets a dangerous precedent.

If there is evidence against her get her back in the country and prosecute her. I really feel that Britain is trying to push this problem onto another country, rather than trying to find a solution.

Depriving Shamim Begum of her citizenship does not create any kind of precedent. It has been available in law since at least 1948 and between 2006 and 2020 at least 464 people have been stripped of British citizenship.

How come this is suddenly popping up again? Is she close to returning?

It has re-emerged because there is a suggestion that she will be put on trial in Syria and if (when) found guilty could be sentenced to death or life imprisonment.

 

[Upintheair83]

You would have had to have been living under a rock with no access to any sort of online news for 15 years to not know who ISIS were. And if her supporters are arguing that she was a victim of online grooming then that was clearly not the case. She can’t be both online active and a completely isolated innocent simultaneously.

So I hope that this “she didn’t know” shite is nipped in the bud. She knew EXACTLY who ISIS were IMO. And she went to join them anyway. And the only explanation i can think of for that is that she joined them because she agreed with their goals. Which suggests to me that she is an extremely dangerous individual and an extreme religious bigot.

Does anyone remember when Samantha Lewthwaite, The White Widow, told BBC news she had “no idea” what her husband was up to? Exhibit A.

I agree, she would have still seen the news, the images of people being beheaded. It was all over the news at times. She saw their violence and the methods they used. I know when I was 15 I would have known straight away it was wrong, how can you not?! To actively go and put yourself in that position there must be some sort of responsibility. She must have had lots of opportunity on the way out there to sit and think what am I doing? and yet she didn't.
I can't help but feel maybe her family sympathised in some way with isis that she felt so comfortable with it all. The talk/ narrative in the household must have been quite pro isis to some extent. And so I do feel the family should be held responsible to some degree and that in itself is quite worrying. Any supporter of Isis has no place in British society.
I think regarding her citizenship, that it should be stripped. If it means preventing another young British girl or boy going out there and joining isis then so be it. Else we just look like a soft touch regarding terrorism.
Isis has no place on British soil imo.

 

[hellothere_]

Should people under 35 never be arrested or tried on court for anything then by that logic!?
There’s a huge difference between shoplifting something on a whim (or even planning to shoplift) and joining a well-known terrorist organisation halfway across the world, and made plans to sneak over and fly there. Wasn’t it a no-flight zone at that point and people that entered the territory had to fly into one country, travel through another and then sneak across a border?

If a 15 year old is capable of that, then they’re old enough to face the consequences. I’m almost 20 years older than that and if someone suggested that I sneak into another country illegally I wouldn’t have a clue how to go about it unless I specifically looked it up and made plans.

That isn’t what I meant, it was purely a example. I was just trying to explain how the brain isn’t as developed in someone a bit older. She 100% should be punished, I’m not saying she shouldn’t but you can’t hide from the fact there is a big difference in a child’s brain (the part that understands decision making) compared to a adults.

Edit: Im also not defending her at all, to do what she did there isn’t any defending. She should be put on trial in Syria, that’s where the crimes happened and that’s where she should take her punishment. I’ve previously said, it’s the people of Syria, victims, children ect that I feel sorry for. I was only explaining about the brain, that’s it.

 

[NeverEnough]

I agree, she would have still seen the news, the images of people being beheaded. It was all over the news at times. She saw their violence and the methods they used. I know when I was 15 I would have known straight away it was wrong, how can you not?! To actively go and put yourself in that position there must be some sort of responsibility. She must have had lots of opportunity on the way out there to sit and think what am I doing? and yet she didn't.
I can't help but feel maybe her family sympathised in some way with isis that she felt so comfortable with it all. The talk/ narrative in the household must have been quite pro isis to some extent. And so I do feel the family should be held responsible to some degree and that in itself is quite worrying. Any supporter of Isis has no place in British society.
I think regarding her citizenship, that it should be stripped. If it means preventing another young British girl or boy going out there and joining isis then so be it. Else we just look like a soft touch regarding terrorism.
Isis has no place on British soil imo.

Thanks for mentioning another elephant, which his her family. Because that is one investigation I would love to see the results of. No one becomes a religious bigot like Begum in isolation and I do wonder what advice about life with the kaffir her mum and dad were whispering in her ear.

Wasn’t Amira Abase’s dad, he of the clutched teddy bear, photographed at a US flag burning rally? Right at the front with his face contorted in hate?

 

[Warpaint]

It has re-emerged because there is a suggestion that she will be put on trial in Syria and if (when) found guilty could be sentenced to death or life imprisonment

Ah right, yeah she definitely needs to go on trial in Syria. She joined them so she'll have to take what comes.

 

[emm]

Ah right, yeah she definitely needs to go on trial in Syria. She joined them so she'll have to take what comes.

I'm kind of surprised with how much publicity she has got tbh, with everything else going on...