Sex And The City & And Just Like That #2

[ouroboros]

Is it controversial to think that it was more realistic for the 90s (even in NYC) to have groups of friends that are the same race? It's not my experience of living there, but it's not my generation either.
There was a similar show to friends around the same time and it was all black - had Queen Latifah in it.

Friends has aged way worse than sex and the city, not because the main characters are white but because of things like Monica in the fat suit and the male nanny.

SATC definitely has loads of examples of aged humour/opinions to the modern tastes. I reckon if Friends had made two films in the 21c people would have forgotten a lot of the inappropriate stuff too.

The quip about Sam treating Carrie as her personal ATM made me go huh?!? She had her own business, owned her apartment and offered to chip in for Carrie's downpayment even though Carrie was financially irresponsible.

Did she really say that? WTAF? Sam was absolutely minted, paying $12k per month for her Upper East Side apartment in the early days and owning her own PR firm with hoteliers like Richard as her client. Yes Carrie made money from her books, but like Charlotte only became mega rich through their husbands.

 

[Lady_H]

Just looked up the diversity of Manhattan and the areas they lived in for most of the time (upper east, upper west, west village) and 70-100% were white with significantly less diversity in NYC back then (page 33 of here - https://furmancenter.org/files/sotc..._Makeup_of_New_York_City_Neighborhoods_11.pdf ). It does look bad the number of shows there 20 years ago that are majority white, but maybe that was some people's reality living in the affluent areas of Manhattan?

When I first lived there I was struck by how segregated the city (or rather Manhattan) was.
Below 96th st, white and affluent. Above 96th, black and considerably less affluent. This was in ‘94. The issue of why this was (and is) and what to do about it is obviously extremely complex as it is throughout the US.

I am not sure what KD and CN mean by “fixing mistakes of the past”. I don’t like this kind of vague apology for, as you say, a production from a different era, and I think it’s virtue-signalling at its worst. I think the experience as portrayed on the original show wasn’t at all unusual for women of that professional and social class at that time. I suppose they could have introduced more successful and affluent POC characters, but in many ways the show as it was was pretty true to life (as I remember it living in the Village and working on the Upper East Side). Would it have been better to include POC characters just for the sake of including them, thereby pretending that a disparity of wealth didn’t exist?

 

[Satisfying Click]

Did she really say that? WTAF? Sam was absolutely minted, paying $12k per month for her Upper East Side apartment in the early days and owning her own PR firm with hoteliers like Richard as her client. Yes Carrie made money from her books, but like Charlotte only became mega rich through their husbands.

Yep, I'm rewatching the scene now where Carrie and Miranda talked about how personally Samantha took it that Carrie couldn't keep her on as a publicist.
Carrie: Look, I understand she was upset but I thought I was more to her than an ATM

It was unnecessarily below the belt. The woman fed you breakfast in bed! Samantha was a true professional and wouldn't have taken a business decision so personally. As you say, wasn't as if Carrie was her meal ticket.

I feel like the narrative of, "Sam ditched us and won't return our calls," was more of a dig towards Kim Cattrall, but does the dirty on Samantha as a result.

 

[Sheabutter]

Would it have been better to include POC characters just for the sake of including them, thereby pretending that disparity of wealth didn’t exist?

I think so not because it’s fiction but because interracial friendships and relationships exist. By not depicting them on television, it’s reinforcing a supremacy of white only spaces. Humans are social creatures and we learn by examples that are set for us. If we’re told something is aspirational, people will do their best to recreate it.

 

[Caitlin44]

I feel like the sexual fluidity was touched upon in the episode years ago with carries bisexual boyfriend (tag from friends). I don’t get the point of the che character, she’s what late 30s/40s so not much different from the main characters. They’re acting like they have been living under a rock all these years

 

[Yel]

I think so not because it’s fiction but because interracial friendships and relationships exist. By not depicting them on television, it’s reinforcing a supremacy of white only spaces. Humans are social creatures and we learn by examples that are set for us. If we’re told something is aspirational, people will do their best to recreate it.

I think that was Taylor Swift's reasoning behind including a black love interest in a video a couple of years ago.

I do agree but it also needs to be done sensitivity. The three leads all have executive producer roles on the show, maybe they all wanted a WOC bestie even if it ends up looking a bit ham fisted?

I feel like the narrative of, "Sam ditched us and won't return our calls," was more of a dig towards Kim Cattrall, but does the dirty on Samantha as a result.

I've seen some people interpret what they've done to Samantha as being lovely and keeping the door open for her to return - which I find bizarre. She's said she won't ever do the role again and if anything it's continuing the feud and making her look like the bad guy.

 

[getawaywithit]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

The point is, they are rebooting the show right now in 2021 and have chosen to add a more diverse cast. Fine. No one should be flailing about that. It’s a new update so let it be updated.

But the problem is— is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!
In fact, I think it’s entirely possible to update SATC with a vibrant and diverse NYC in the midst of new media and social changes, and just not do it horribly.

In fact, have they ever been able to recapture that original dynamic quality, even with the films? I mean, the second film was tit and it certainly was not ‘woke’, lol, quite the opposite.
I’m sure people will argue with this, but maybe consider how many complaints have landed on the mere presence of WOC in the cast or the fact that they’re now talking about things like gender fluidity, which shouldn’t be so triggering. If the show isn’t interesting or well written, it’s not because Carrie has a Black friend.

 

[Sideboard Bob]

I feel like the sexual fluidity was touched upon in the episode years ago with carries bisexual boyfriend (tag from friends).

To be honest though, that was a really poor portrayal of bisexuals. I get that Carrie’s reaction might have been in character, but when I watched it originally I was a closeted bisexual and found the stereotypes so irritating (and I swear I’m not one of those people whose easily offended!).

 

[ouroboros]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

The point is, they are rebooting the show right now in 2021 and have chosen to add a more diverse cast. Fine. No one should be flailing about that. It’s a new update so let it be updated.

But the problem is— is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!
In fact, I think it’s entirely possible to update SATC with a vibrant and diverse NYC in the midst of new media and social changes, and just not do it horribly.

In fact, have they ever been able to recapture that original dynamic quality, even with the films? I mean, the second film was tit and it certainly was not ‘woke’, lol, quite the opposite.
I’m sure people will argue with this, but maybe consider how many complaints have landed on the mere presence of WOC in the cast or the fact that they’re now talking about things like gender fluidity, which shouldn’t be so triggering. If the show isn’t interesting or well written, it’s not because Carrie has a Black friend.

I think we all largely agree that the legacy is totally bleeping ruined from film 1 onwards. Everything is ruined by crappy modernisation that doesn’t fit the original spirit or charm. The bigger question to me is are we so dead creatively that we have to bastardise everything rather than create new media? It’s the same with old songs. Enough already. I don’t want to hear yet another ‘updated’ version of Last bleeping Christmas. Am I right or wrong?

 

[Yel]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!

The cast themselves started the conversation by saying it was wrong, I think people are allowed to discuss that. Would seem worse to want to shut down discussion of this imo.

I don't think anyones blaming the show for being bad because there's people of colour in it - not sure how you came to that assumption? It's seems like yet another lazy choice, of which there are a lot in the show.

 

[Caitlin44]

To be honest though, that was a really poor portrayal of bisexuals. I get that Carrie’s reaction might have been in character, but when I watched it originally I was a closeted bisexual and found the stereotypes so irritating (and I swear I’m not one of those people whose easily offended!).

Completely agree. I just think sadly the writers haven’t improved on introducing characters in regards to gender and colour without sticking to bad stereotypes

 

[Beverley Macker]

Yep, I'm rewatching the scene now where Carrie and Miranda talked about how personally Samantha took it that Carrie couldn't keep her on as a publicist.
Carrie: Look, I understand she was upset but I thought I was more to her than an ATM

It was unnecessarily below the belt. The woman fed you breakfast in bed! Samantha was a true professional and wouldn't have taken a business decision so personally. As you say, wasn't as if Carrie was her meal ticket.

I feel like the narrative of, "Sam ditched us and won't return our calls," was more of a dig towards Kim Cattrall, but does the dirty on Samantha as a result.

I don’t agree that Samantha wouldn’t take a business decision personally, I mean she took it personally when Carrie didn’t like her idea for her book cover that time, in fact it took Marcus (Stanfords lovely boyfriend) to point out that the hideous dated nightie and shoes that she had chosen for Carrie was ‘not very modern’ and she was still put out (although later admitted it was partly because she was still upset about Richard). Also when Smith says his mum and grandmother were worried/ concerned/ and embarrassed about him posing naked for the Absolute hunk ads, she says to ignore them as they are ‘prudes and nobodies’!
(Although in hindsight I actually think that reflects worse on Smith. Spineless prick, I’d have been bleeping raging if my manager referred to my mum and nan like that).

 

[ouroboros]

The cast themselves started the conversation by saying it was wrong, I think people are allowed to discuss that. Would seem worse to want to shut down discussion of this imo.

I don't think anyones blaming the show for being bad because there's people of colour in it - not sure how you came to that assumption? It's seems like another lazy choice, of which there are a lot in the show.

Even more reason why they should leave it alone to me. Greedy women just want another big pay cheque. If they cared about the characters and the shows legacy they would know it’s had it’s time. After all their die hard fans are probably mostly middle-aged and if they were hoping to pick up younger fans is that likely? From what I hear about the maturbation scene it was like watching your parents and Brady’s scenes were like watching your child. Ew ew ew.

 

[BettyCrockerr]

Yep, I'm rewatching the scene now where Carrie and Miranda talked about how personally Samantha took it that Carrie couldn't keep her on as a publicist.
Carrie: Look, I understand she was upset but I thought I was more to her than an ATM

It was unnecessarily below the belt. The woman fed you breakfast in bed! Samantha was a true professional and wouldn't have taken a business decision so personally. As you say, wasn't as if Carrie was her meal ticket.

I feel like the narrative of, "Sam ditched us and won't return our calls," was more of a dig towards Kim Cattrall, but does the dirty on Samantha as a result.

Samantha & Miranda were both self made wealthy women during the show. Charlotte was from a wealthy WASPY family and then married into the well off MacDougal family and then got married to wealthy Harry the lawyer. Carrie was always the “poor” friend; she lived in a small rent controlled 1 bed apartment, and when she goes to enquire about a mortgage she has less than £1000 to her name. (Have to suspend our disbelief here seeing as she somehow always had endless cash to spend on expensive designer footwear & clothes and could eat out at exclusive restaurants and go to
Bars and clubs every night but yknow…)

 

[Scottstots]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

The point is, they are rebooting the show right now in 2021 and have chosen to add a more diverse cast. Fine. No one should be flailing about that. It’s a new update so let it be updated.

But the problem is— is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!
In fact, I think it’s entirely possible to update SATC with a vibrant and diverse NYC in the midst of new media and social changes, and just not do it horribly.

In fact, have they ever been able to recapture that original dynamic quality, even with the films? I mean, the second film was tit and it certainly was not ‘woke’, lol, quite the opposite.
I’m sure people will argue with this, but maybe consider how many complaints have landed on the mere presence of WOC in the cast or the fact that they’re now talking about things like gender fluidity, which shouldn’t be so triggering. If the show isn’t interesting or well written, it’s not because Carrie has a Black friend.

Absolutely the issue is with the writing and production!! Take Sex Education for example, it was wonderfully written and represented just about anybody and everybody. It was fresh and organic and exactly how tv should be written in 2021. This felt like desperate shoehorning. All fur coat and no D&G bejewelled knickers!!

 

[Stillwater]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

The point is, they are rebooting the show right now in 2021 and have chosen to add a more diverse cast. Fine. No one should be flailing about that. It’s a new update so let it be updated.

But the problem is— is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!
In fact, I think it’s entirely possible to update SATC with a vibrant and diverse NYC in the midst of new media and social changes, and just not do it horribly.

In fact, have they ever been able to recapture that original dynamic quality, even with the films? I mean, the second film was tit and it certainly was not ‘woke’, lol, quite the opposite.
I’m sure people will argue with this, but maybe consider how many complaints have landed on the mere presence of WOC in the cast or the fact that they’re now talking about things like gender fluidity, which shouldn’t be so triggering. If the show isn’t interesting or well written, it’s not because Carrie has a Black friend.

So much this.

 

[ouroboros]

Sex Education is an epic modern drama. More please.

 

[Sideboard Bob]

Completely agree. I just think sadly the writers haven’t improved on introducing characters in regards to gender and colour without sticking to bad stereotypes

On a lighter note, I’d totally forgotten that was Tag from Friends! I think Alanis Morisette was in that episode too!

 

[blueberriesarenice]

Absolutely the issue is with the writing and production!! Take Sex Education for example, it was wonderfully written and represented just about anybody and everybody. It was fresh and organic and exactly how tv should be written in 2021. This felt like desperate shoehorning. All fur coat and no D&G bejewelled knickers!!

Oh come on the newest series of “sex education” was so much of an exercise in shoehorning all the right woke tropes into one season. In that way, “and just like that” is exactly the same. The old series hasn’t aged great but it had some heart and wasn’t pandering nearly so much.

 

[Lady_H]

Guys, I feel uncomfortable with scrutinizing whether or not they ‘should’ have had diverse friends or the demographics of a particular neighborhood in a certain time in the 90s lol.

The point is, they are rebooting the show right now in 2021 and have chosen to add a more diverse cast. Fine. No one should be flailing about that. It’s a new update so let it be updated.

But the problem is— is the show any good? And this is the important part— if it’s not, let’s not blame it on the fact that there are now women of colour in the cast. Let’s blame it on the writing and production!
In fact, I think it’s entirely possible to update SATC with a vibrant and diverse NYC in the midst of new media and social changes, and just not do it horribly.

In fact, have they ever been able to recapture that original dynamic quality, even with the films? I mean, the second film was tit and it certainly was not ‘woke’, lol, quite the opposite.
I’m sure people will argue with this, but maybe consider how many complaints have landed on the mere presence of WOC in the cast or the fact that they’re now talking about things like gender fluidity, which shouldn’t be so triggering. If the show isn’t interesting or well written, it’s not because Carrie has a Black friend.

I really don’t think anyone here is triggered by the mere presence of WOC in the cast, or by Carrie having a black friend, or gender fluidity issues. That really is quite a leap. The point is that these topics aren’t being handled well by the writing and production which feels clunky and inauthentic. So it looks like most of us agree on that.