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moldwarp

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Fractures in her fingers for 2 weeks before she died.
A neck fracture for 6-12 weeks.
Signs of starvation.
Signs of strangulation.

It just keeps getting worse.
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They tortured her. If they don’t get whole life orders something is very wrong.
The fact that her bone marrow was 'jellified' is truly horrific because it means adequate nutrition was withdrawn very suddenly and significantly. Something similar was seen in POWs in Japanese concentration camps in WW2 as part of the Unit 731 experiments (do NOT google Unit 731 unless you want to ruin your day, just believe that it made Auschwitz look like Butlins and I do not say that lightly).

This is proper, carefully planned abuse and things like the hoods and some of the other injuries are honestly like something from Japanese concentration camps. I would not be surprised if it turns out that the Demons were watching documentaries to learn new horrific things to do that they could experiment with. This goes way beyond an inadequate parent lashing out.

Like I said before, I honestly do believe that the death penalty should apply for very rare and isolated cases like this, if the people are found guilty obvs.
 
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Mrsell

Chatty Member
So I am interested in how it happens because that’s the stuff we need to deal with, to prevent the pattern repeating.
It’s not about excusing the adults of their terrible behaviour and saying “oh well they couldn’t help it, their dad was a bastard“.
I find it interesting to what extent people are basically evil, or become evil due to their life experiences. Because some people are evil, no doubt. But most aren’t, some start doing evil things though.
I've commented this previously on another thread but I feel quite passionately about these cases as I was a severely neglected and abused child. Although I didn't specifically suffer much physical abuse the thought of ever hurting my own or anyone else's child is abhorrent. I know there is the saying that 'hurt people hurt people ' and it's undeniably true but everyone has free will and I knew growing up that what I was living with was wrong, I know as an adult it's wrong. These people blaming their childhoods or past abuse also know that what they are doing is wrong and choose to do it still. I have not one ounce of sympathy for them.

Interestingly I've also mentioned previously I have a friend who was a social worker and even with my own history I do still on the whole defend the profession as I saw first hand how aggressive and manipulative my own father was.

I hope the key is thrown away with all of them
 
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Lizzie Mintdrop

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I've seen lots of people saying, on various parts of the internet, that they think BB was the instigator of the more torturous elements of Sara's abuse. I think it's becoming clear how untrue that is.

I feel so sad that Sara didn't have anyone who cared for her, the poor girl only knew abusers. Her short life must have been so painful.
 
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Emsie

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Or that baby got up and tried to make some light in her awful little life. It's not unknown for abused children to be bright smiley kids tbh.
God I hate them so much!!! If they didnt want her just give her back to her mum or relinquish her to social services. Yeah she'd be traumatised but she'd have been able to live a half decent life.
 
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MrsJones83

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This is like nothing I’ve ever ever heard before, that poor girl.

It’s beginning to sound like everyone turned a blind eye, the neighbours thought about reporting it but decided against it. I wonder what her old school are now thinking.

Safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility.
 

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Emsie

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Honestly this case is so distressing. I am forcing myself to keep up with it because that little baby girl lived it. Its not good enough for me to turn away.
I just cannot comprehend this. I can understand (well I cant) but losing it for a second and delivering one fatal blow, but this sustained abuse. Why? Because she was female? Because she was mixed race? Or just because they could. Rest in peace Sara. You deserved so much more.
 
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Tell.A.Tale

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Without starting a debate on the death penalty - the people responsible for doing this to Sara do not deserve the air that they breathe!
 
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HotesTilaire

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Sorry if this has been posted, so he's admitted to a lot of things but he isn't admitting burning or biting her. We know the bite marks weren't him because it's been proven so that leaves the other two. The burns could've been provided by an iron but it wasn't tested for some reason. Is he really the reason she died that night? Did he inflict those injuries or did BB? I can't get over how awful this whole thing is, the pain Sara suffered for god knows how long is awful to think about.
She didn’t appear to die of sepsis so the burns aren’t the reason she died, so it’s burns and bites vs beaten with a cricket bat, her body full of badly-healed fractures to her neck, back, shoulders, fingers, legs.

The pathologist said it wasn’t one incident which killed her, it was the cumulative effect. She was slowly dying for weeks, days up til that evening.

There’s also the question of whether they stopped feeding her, there was evidence of sudden starvation. She was murdered, but by how many of them.
 
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Dinate

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Poor Sara had such an unhappy 10 years. From earlier reports, it seems that the relationship between Olga and US was mutually abusive. And there must have been concerns about his behaviour towards the children because it was reported that he initially had supervised contact with the children whilst Olga had physical custody. Then something happened with Olga which must have been serious for them to remove the children from her custody and return them to US given the background of his behaviour.

Then she ends up being with an abusive US, who is joined in his cruelty by BB and latterly by FM. Every single adult who was supposed to look after her, not only let her down, but also violently abused her. Poor girl. So much suffering with no respite. My heart truly bleeds for her.
 
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Mollywobbles

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I am really sad for that little girl and i find the photo of her they keep using which she has a lot of makeup on very disturbing,

I saw some of the family video and found it ridiculous that they claimed to have no food for the kids and wont go out.
That photo disturbs me as well. All the makeup. The off the shoulder dress when the stepmother is wearing a high necked dress with her hair covered.
Something is not right.
 
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Jen667

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The whole case is looking like a monumental SS screw up. I'm not someone who is generally down on on social workers, I know they have HUGE case loads and are poorly paid. I know that we only ever hear about the disasters, we never hear about the thousands of kids whose lives will have been saved, because they were removed from abusive parents.

But when they get it really wrong, as they did here, kids die and they have to answer to that. There were so many red flags.
 
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HotesTilaire

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I do think it's fair though to say that some cultures are more deeply misogynistic than others. I understand why native Brits feel shy about saying that (not talking about you specifically lovely Hotes, just thinking about media discourse in general) and maybe I have more air cover as being visibly not ethnically British but yeah, places like Pakistan, loads of the Middle East, rural India and the Indian subcontinent, parts of Central Asia - women are just NOT valued the same, sometimes not even in law, definitely not in culture.

On Islam specifically, I fully understand why people want to tread carefully but a few years ago I read an essay by a theologian (can't recall who, Theo Hobson possibly, or possibly it was actually Dawkins) who made the brilliant point that Islam, unlike Christianity, has never been through a Reformation. The Christian Reformation had all sorts of long term beneficial consequences that echoed down the centuries, the most important one being the separation of church and state which meant that laws could be made from a humanist perspective and no longer with reference to what the Bible and the Pope said. This directly allowed western societies to make equality laws for women, gay people, abortion access etc.

Islam on the other hand has never (yet!) been through a Reformation and so, at its most conservative, culture (and in Islamic theocracies like Afghanistan, the actual law of the land) is made directly with reference to the Koran, just like the West used to do in the Middle Ages. This means that the cultural frameworks provide attitudes to women which were relevant for a very aggressive nomadic conquering tribal society, which is the societies where Islam started. So this is where you end up with laws like men can have multiple wives, cos that makes sense in the context of a tribal society (more women than men due to the early Islamic societies constantly invading, fighting and dying) and women being worth half of men in law.

I don't think we should be ashamed of examining this stuff and there are brilliant Muslims and former Muslims like the magnificent Ayaan Hirsi Ali who expound on this in great deal. I understand what people are doing when they pretend that all misogyny is the same and western democratic misogynists are just as misogynistic as the Taliban leaders, but it's just not true, I think everyone knows it's not true, and ultimately it stops us having the frank conversations that might save the next Sara Sharif.
I was actually thinking of Christian fundamentalism which also doesn’t value women and girls, and America currently seeming to use the Handmaid’s Tale as some sort of inspiration.
I’m here for difficult conversations in relation to specific cultures and religions, what I’m not here for is “we shouldn’t let that culture in our country”. People from this country are quite able to kill their own children, too.
 
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I’ve only just seen this whole case- just terrible
To respond to the comment earlier about her being removed from her mother- yes there were likely issues that meant children’s services believed she would come to significant harm with her mother HOWEVER if father is an abusive man the gaslighting and manipulation of authorities is not uncommon at all especially if his family members were of a similar ilk and corroborated his accounts .And it’s sad but true many kids removed from the care of a parent are then placed with someone far more dangerous and end up dead
 
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moldwarp

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Do the authorities know for sure that none of the other children were abused?
I think they had Sara as the black sheep. It's common in child abuse cases. The other kids are simply relieved it's not them and, being children, they come to believe that the abused child must indeed be genuinely naughty otherwise why would the all-powerful parents be 'punishing' them?

Sylvia Likens, Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Logan Mwangi are all tragic examples of this dynamic. Sometimes the abusive parent will even gaslight/groom the other children into carrying out some of the abuse.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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I never wish harm on anyone. I don’t believe in the death penalty. I don’t wish for people to be targeted in prison.

These monsters are making me feel something I haven’t before.

They will never feel the fear that Sara felt. They will never experience the pain and injuries she endured. No matter what could happen to them, it will never, ever be a years-long torture like they did to her.
 
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Oh my god what if she was getting Sara in trouble that’s sick
That crossed my mind too. It seems as though it would be easy to provoke him into a rage, then she could just sit back and let him go. It seems really odd for a little girl to cut up someone’s clothes and hide keys as well, you’d think she would not do anything to prevent him from leaving the house if he was the only one being so abusive. As for the sister, she needs to be punished for sitting on that information.
 
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moldwarp

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I think this is why I can be a “soft touch” a bit, but also I’m interested in how and why these circumstances come about. Hurt people hurt people.
Well yes but personally I'm quite a hardliner on adults having responsibility for their own choices. No matter how traumatised you may be it does NOT give you the right to re-enact that abuse on others especially dependent and vulnerable children, in fact I would say a person who does that is even more culpable because they know how it felt when it was done to them. I mean I agree with you that understanding generational deprivation and abuse is important but I think care is needed because there's quite a fine line between understanding and excusing, sometimes. And there shouldn't be. I mean like Hitler had loads of trauma from being gassed in WW1 and then being homeless, I've no doubt Jack the Ripper's dad probably hit him and routinely sent him to bed wihtout any dinner (OK I'm making this shit up now) but they are still responsible for their crimes and being victims doesn't let them off.
 
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InTheDollsHouse

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This is horrific.

She was being tortured. This was targeted, deliberate and cruel violence.
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I can’t imagine the evidence the jury are having to look at.
 
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I’m usually the last person to say, or even think, things like this but if there was a way to inflict all of the injuries Sara suffered upon these people then I would be all for it. They had no sympathy, empathy or care for her, let them live what she lived so they can understand what they did. Even then it wouldn’t be as bad, because they would know why it was happening whereas poor Sara must’ve wondered why her and why nobody would help.
 
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