Racism Discussions

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I think this is why it's such a complex issue and it isn't right to accuse people of racism unless it's absolutely clear they are being racist. Let me just qualify this by saying that I know that some POC do suffer the most appaling racism and that it it should be condemned absolutely.

With regards to white privilege, however is that I think the term is very unhelpful. As far as I understand, it refers to the very particular (and definitely very real) day to day experience of being perceived as 'different.' I so wish that there were a better way to refer to this issue because it's a very divisive term and I can see why people rail against it. It's easy to interpret is as being that all white people have privilege that all black people do not, which of course isn't true. It must be very frustrating to feel as though you're being lectured by journalists, celebs, instagrammers etc as to your privilege when you're a worker in a pub in a seaside town, or some other terribly deprived area

I also see it as being very reductive because it presumes, as I said in the other thread, that all white people are a homogeneous group and the same of non white people. Some of the worst racism I've been witness to has been between black and Asian people. Who is more privileged there? Is there not an imbalance if a wealthy black person is racist about eastern European migrants?

Also, what about the daily struggles of those who are disabled, or gay. When I was a student and got into activism, identity politics was seen as a really bad thing, because we need to work together if we're going to make improvements for everyone.

I do think that people are trying to be better, on the whole. That's why I hate this cancel culture. I don't doubt that MOD is a bit of a knob but I'm certain she isn't a racist.
The concept of privilege I think is actually useful because it carries the idea you have it, but you haven’t necessarily done anything to do that, you’re born with it and will benefit from it whether you’re conscious of it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when people say racism against white people doesn't exist, they back that up with there not being any institutional/systemic racism against white people. But isn't that just a type of racism? Racism definition: ''prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.'' Black people sure as hell can believe they are better than white people, and the definition doesn't mention systems or institutions.

Also, white people may benefit most in some western counties but not in other non-western countries. Do these people still argue racism against white people doesn't exist in these countries where white people don't hold the power? I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to start any fights.
This is because racism generally is agreed to include the broader society/institutional elements that impact POC across their lives, rather than someone making nasty prejudged comments.
I think when you look at it most of the most powerful countries are run by white people?
 
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This is the problem though, right? POC can say whatever they like about white people because we are all racists pieces of tit and racism against white people isn't a real thing. They are permitted to generalize about white people and say nasty ass tit, but as soon as a white persons says that someone is being aggressive, even when are actually are being aggressive, it's racist. Surely, the way to change the world isn't to start by shitting all over it. If you want to engage with white people and ask them to be advocates you don't start out by insulting everything about them. There are boatloads of white people going to bat every bleeping day for POC because they truly care about changing the world around them. But they're not on their instagram soapbox shouting about it so we're all pieces of tit white trash. duck right off. Advocates don't shout about their advocacy, they just plug along trying to make a difference. All of these instahuns, regardless of color, are just in this for the likes/ego and the cash/freebies. They give no shits about the world around them, Bandwagon mentatlity.
But you’re generalising here again. A couple of POC have said some things you don’t like and now this vitriolic response saying they ALL can do this and think ALL White people are racist pieces of tit??
 
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This is the problem though, right? POC can say whatever they like about white people because we are all racists pieces of tit and racism against white people isn't a real thing. They are permitted to generalize about white people and say nasty ass tit, but as soon as a white persons says that someone is being aggressive, even when are actually are being aggressive, it's racist. Surely, the way to change the world isn't to start by shitting all over it. If you want to engage with white people and ask them to be advocates you don't start out by insulting everything about them. There are boatloads of white people going to bat every bleeping day for POC because they truly care about changing the world around them. But they're not on their instagram soapbox shouting about it so we're all pieces of tit white trash. duck right off. Advocates don't shout about their advocacy, they just plug along trying to make a difference. All of these instahuns, regardless of color, are just in this for the likes/ego and the cash/freebies. They give no shits about the world around them, Bandwagon mentatlity.
I was absolutely shocked by her blanket statement "Racism against white people doesn't exist" I'm a poc. Mods comment was bitchy but not racist. The insta wannabes are so short sighted. It makes a mockery of real racism and prejudice.
 
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But you’re generalising here again. A couple of POC have said some things you don’t like and now this vitriolic response saying they ALL can do this and think ALL White people are racist pieces of tit??
But you’re generalising here again. A couple of POC have said some things you don’t like and now this vitriolic response saying they ALL can do this and think ALL White people are racist pieces of tit??
Naw, mate, I did not say ALL POC. Because not all POC behave like Kelechi does. Just like not ALL white people are racist. There is ingrained racism in society, but that doesn't mean ALL white people behave in a racist way or subscribe to racist beliefs because society as a whole is racist. There are A LOT of white people who advocate and are making real changes in the world not shouting on their instagram platform that things need to change and doing duck all to change them - and by this I mean the whole bandwagon let's take down MOD because she called CB agressive crap. I'm not being vitriolic in my statement, I am talking about one specific person who time and time again generalizes about white people when the reality is there are a lot of good white people out in the world doing real work to fight racism as opposed to shouting about it on instagram. There's been a proper bandwagon mentality on Insta since this car crash started where all of a sudden everyone "cares" about the statistics around black healthcare, which is nothing but bullshit, they do not care one bit. None of these women gave a rat's ass about how black women are constantly ignored by healthcare professionals both in maternity care and in general health care. And now all of sudden everyone is posting these stats because MOD said CB was aggressive. duck off. They'll all go back to their lives of posting #AD and not do a goddanmed thing to have a real and lasting impact on the lives of Black Women. Just because they invite CB to their Jo Malone event doesn't change anything.
 
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Naw, mate, I did not say ALL POC. Because not all POC behave like Kelechi does. Just like not ALL white people are racist. There is ingrained racism in society, but that doesn't mean ALL white people behave in a racist way or subscribe to racist beliefs because society as a whole is racist. There are A LOT of white people who advocate and are making real changes in the world not shouting on their instagram platform that things need to change and doing duck all to change them - and by this I mean the whole bandwagon let's take down MOD because she called CB agressive crap. I'm not being vitriolic in my statement, I am talking about one specific person who time and time again generalizes about white people when the reality is there are a lot of good white people out in the world doing real work to fight racism as opposed to shouting about it on instagram. There's been a proper bandwagon mentality on Insta since this car crash started where all of a sudden everyone "cares" about the statistics around black healthcare, which is nothing but bullshit, they do not care one bit. None of these women gave a rat's ass about how black women are constantly ignored by healthcare professionals both in maternity care and in general health care. And now all of sudden everyone is posting these stats because MOD said CB was aggressive. duck off. They'll all go back to their lives of posting #AD and not do a goddanmed thing to have a real and lasting impact on the lives of Black Women. Just because they invite CB to their Jo Malone even doesn't change anything.
Ok so there’s two different things here. I agree that the ‘instahuns’ can come across fairly disingenuous in their concern for racial issues. But your previous comment felt like you were mad at POC in general and implying they’re hindering the effort on working together to break down the systemic racism in society because they said a couple of rude, prejudiced things. If you meant a specific person just say that.
 
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Ok so there’s two different things here. I agree that the ‘instahuns’ can come across fairly disingenuous in their concern for racial issues. But your previous comment felt like you were mad at POC in general and implying they’re hindering the effort on working together to break down the systemic racism in society because they said a couple of rude, prejudiced things. If you meant a specific person just say that.
I do apologize because that certainly wasn't my point at all and I can see how that would come across as I didn't qualify whom I was talking about (and I was a bit ranty/bitchy). I just assumed because in the thread we were discussing Kelechi and CB, that people would know who I was speaking about. I do often find that Kelechi specifically makes it hard to have a conversation about how we can change systemic racism because she is throwing insults at white people, claiming they are dirty, don't season their food, should suck their mum with a straw, etc. etc. etc. I know she does go out into the world and fights against racism and I admire her for her advocacy, so I don't mean that aspect. It's this let's encourage violence against a woman who gossiped on a website thing that is unacceptable, report Clemmie to the midwifery board, but don't tell your tens of thousands of followers that she deserves to have her teeth punched out because she called someone aggressive. She constantly crosses the line in that way when she goes off on these tangents. I have come across this sort of white people are evil mentality on instagram and twitter where it's like how can we move forward if that is where we are starting? You smell, so duck off, you can't have a seat at the table. If white people are perpetuating racism, which obvs they are, how do you get them to stop? By insulting them from the jump? This is a massively complex issue so it's tough to sit on tattle and be like, yooo let's fix racism, yeah? Fighting racism and stereotypes is something that is really important to me and this faux concern for Black Women and their healthcare has grinded my gears something fierce. No one gave a tit about these stats when they came out, save a handful of people. There's a concerted effort to change how healthcare is provided to POC and it's not by posting stats on insta, it's getting into hospitals and providing the necessary training and oversight to those providing healthcare to POC. It's bringing more POC into the healthcare professions and hospital admin positions. It's not shouting about white people being dirty and claiming one midwife is destroying the whole of civilization and wants to kill Black Women and their babies. This is a situation in which it is a teachable moment. Clemmie made a remark that has racist undertones, I don't think it's because she is racist (but hey maybe she is, I don't know her), I think it's because she is incredibly ignorant. This happens A LOT with white people. There are a lot of white people who are NOT racist but say things that are unbelievably ignorant. Because racism is so ingrained in our society, there is a lot of ignorance that occurs from people who truly are not racist but make statements that have undertones of racism because that is what they grow up hearing, seeing, and learning in their sheltered white world. It's easier to just call someone a racist and be done with it than to examine the nuance with which racism is allowed to continue because of ignorant statements based on racist stereotypes than to have a conversation about how to stop this tit and change people's way of communicating (i.e. getting them to stop using racist language that they may not always realize is racist). If you're a white person living in the UK or USA, there is a good chance that you have very limited interaction with POC, especially if you do not live in or near to a city. There is also a really good chance that you have been bombarded with tiny bits of racism your whole life therefore you will likely step in tit and say the wrong things many times throughout your life, not because you are deeply racist but because of what I stated above, you live in a society where racism is part of the fabric of the nation and it's tough not to step in it now and again. This is why it is so important to have proper conversations about racism and the nuance of language. I do worry that we're taking a good midwife out of the system because she made an ignorant remark in a time of stress and unhappiness, I'm not defending her per se, but I don't think she deserves to be completely destroyed. I think she could have learned from this and then be brought into the conversation in way that could help combat racism. Just destroying people's lives instead of taking these instances and using them to improve quality of care seems awfully foolish. I don't know. It's hard, maybe Clemmie deserves to have her pin taken away, but maybe, just maybe, she's a good midwife who has made a terrible mistake. She could still be someone who turns it around and has a positive impact of women's quality of care, but who knows. Prob not. It's just sad because in this car crash there is a lot to be learned and a lot that could be done to help POC and to change the stats around mother and infant mortality. Can you imagine if someone like Clemmie, who has a massive reach on social media, sat down with Kelechi and Candice (who also have massive social media influence) and they had a proper conversation about what happened and why and what could be done to change the world in which Black Women are almost never listened to when they are unwell and therefore receive inadequate care. I mean, that is world I want to live in, a world in which we stop shouting at each other and sit down and say tit, I fucked up, help me to understand your world, your perspective, your experience, and let's see what we can do together to change things, to make the healthcare professionals more likely to listen to POC. When all you do is yell and work to destroy people who have made mistakes, you're never going to get where you want to go. It makes the divide wider and wider. I'm probably being utterly silly to think these three woman could in fact band together and create positive change.
 
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This is the problem though, right? POC can say whatever they like about white people because we are all racists pieces of tit and racism against white people isn't a real thing. They are permitted to generalize about white people and say nasty ass tit, but as soon as a white persons says that someone is being aggressive, even when are actually are being aggressive, it's racist. Surely, the way to change the world isn't to start by shitting all over it. If you want to engage with white people and ask them to be advocates you don't start out by insulting everything about them. There are boatloads of white people going to bat every bleeping day for POC because they truly care about changing the world around them. But they're not on their instagram soapbox shouting about it so we're all pieces of tit white trash. duck right off. Advocates don't shout about their advocacy, they just plug along trying to make a difference. All of these instahuns, regardless of color, are just in this for the likes/ego and the cash/freebies. They give no shits about the world around them, Bandwagon mentatlity.
Have you not just generalised in this comment when referring to POC as if they all do what you’ve said above? There are pieces of tit in all walks of life.
 
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I do apologize because that certainly wasn't my point at all and I can see how that would come across as I didn't qualify whom I was talking about (and I was a bit ranty/bitchy). I just assumed because in the thread we were discussing Kelechi and CB, that people would know who I was speaking about. I do often find that Kelechi specifically makes it hard to have a conversation about how we can change systemic racism because she is throwing insults at white people, claiming they are dirty, don't season their food, should suck their mum with a straw, etc. etc. etc. I know she does go out into the world and fights against racism and I admire her for her advocacy, so I don't mean that aspect. It's this let's encourage violence against a woman who gossiped on a website thing that is unacceptable, report Clemmie to the midwifery board, but don't tell your tens of thousands of followers that she deserves to have her teeth punched out because she called someone aggressive. She constantly crosses the line in that way when she goes off on these tangents. I have come across this sort of white people are evil mentality on instagram and twitter where it's like how can we move forward if that is where we are starting? You smell, so duck off, you can't have a seat at the table. If white people are perpetuating racism, which obvs they are, how do you get them to stop? By insulting them from the jump? This is a massively complex issue so it's tough to sit on tattle and be like, yooo let's fix racism, yeah? Fighting racism and stereotypes is something that is really important to me and this faux concern for Black Women and their healthcare has grinded my gears something fierce. No one gave a tit about these stats when they came out, save a handful of people. There's a concerted effort to change how healthcare is provided to POC and it's not by posting stats on insta, it's getting into hospitals and providing the necessary training and oversight to those providing healthcare to POC. It's bringing more POC into the healthcare professions and hospital admin positions. It's not shouting about white people being dirty and claiming one midwife is destroying the whole of civilization and wants to kill Black Women and their babies. This is a situation in which it is a teachable moment. Clemmie made a remark that has racist undertones, I don't think it's because she is racist (but hey maybe she is, I don't know her), I think it's because she is incredibly ignorant. This happens A LOT with white people. There are a lot of white people who are NOT racist but say things that are unbelievably ignorant. Because racism is so ingrained in our society, there is a lot of ignorance that occurs from people who truly are not racist but make statements that have undertones of racism because that is what they grow up hearing, seeing, and learning in their sheltered white world. It's easier to just call someone a racist and be done with it than to examine the nuance with which racism is allowed to continue because of ignorant statements based on racist stereotypes than to have a conversation about how to stop this tit and change people's way of communicating (i.e. getting them to stop using racist language that they may not always realize is racist). If you're a white person living in the UK or USA, there is a good chance that you have very limited interaction with POC, especially if you do not live in or near to a city. There is also a really good chance that you have been bombarded with tiny bits of racism your whole life therefore you will likely step in tit and say the wrong things many times throughout your life, not because you are deeply racist but because of what I stated above, you live in a society where racism is part of the fabric of the nation and it's tough not to step in it now and again. This is why it is so important to have proper conversations about racism and the nuance of language. I do worry that we're taking a good midwife out of the system because she made an ignorant remark in a time of stress and unhappiness, I'm not defending her per se, but I don't think she deserves to be completely destroyed. I think she could have learned from this and then be brought into the conversation in way that could help combat racism. Just destroying people's lives instead of taking these instances and using them to improve quality of care seems awfully foolish. I don't know. It's hard, maybe Clemmie deserves to have her pin taken away, but maybe, just maybe, she's a good midwife who has made a terrible mistake. She could still be someone who turns it around and has a positive impact of women's quality of care, but who knows. Prob not. It's just sad because in this car crash there is a lot to be learned and a lot that could be done to help POC and to change the stats around mother and infant mortality. Can you imagine if someone like Clemmie, who has a massive reach on social media, sat down with Kelechi and Candice (who also have massive social media influence) and they had a proper conversation about what happened and why and what could be done to change the world in which Black Women are almost never listened to when they are unwell and therefore receive inadequate care. I mean, that is world I want to live in, a world in which we stop shouting at each other and sit down and say tit, I fucked up, help me to understand your world, your perspective, your experience, and let's see what we can do together to change things, to make the healthcare professionals more likely to listen to POC. When all you do is yell and work to destroy people who have made mistakes, you're never going to get where you want to go. It makes the divide wider and wider. I'm probably being utterly silly to think these three woman could in fact band together and create positive change.
Woah. That’s a long post, but as you say trying to ‘fix’ this on tattle is a big ask. The concern seems driven by the fact that the mortality statistics are terrifyingly bad, and overt racism is easier to spot. The buried, somewhat unconscious bias is more scary and if someone in a position to affect maternal outcomes has demonstrated it - that’s part of the problem. She can’t be the exception. But I understand what you mean about just going for the ‘cancel culture’ instead of trying to work with her - but she hasn’t, as yet, really shown that she’s really sorry or understood the impact of her comments. The only good thing about the faux concern is that more people might have been alerted to the shocking stats.
 
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Racism exists for everyone. There is no equality in racism regardless of colour, creed or religion.
 
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When did dismiss anyone's fears as trivial? She hasn't minimised racism at all. Well not as far as the posts on here go. Her comment was no way an attack on w.o.c it was a comment about one person in general. I can't believe we are back to this again. She doesn't deserve to lose her job over a comment she made about one person. That wasn't even racist and she's not a danger to expectant mothers from different races. To imply that she is or that she doesn't care is horrendous, especially when your opinion sounds like it's based on hearsay and rumours.
I can’t believe we’re back to the ‘it wasn’t racist’ again. Even if the rest of what people are saying about how MOD might feel is conjecture, a white woman saying a black woman always brings it ‘back to race’ as if it’s a choice she gets to make about her life experience as a black woman is racist. MOD would have no idea what it’s like to be a POC so she can’t say something to trivialise someone’s experiences and imply the person is exaggerating what they feel.
 
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When did dismiss anyone's fears as trivial? She hasn't minimised racism at all. Well not as far as the posts on here go. Her comment was no way an attack on w.o.c it was a comment about one person in general. I can't believe we are back to this again. She doesn't deserve to lose her job over a comment she made about one person. That wasn't even racist and she's not a danger to expectant mothers from different races. To imply that she is or that she doesn't care is horrendous, especially when your opinion sounds like it's based on hearsay and rumours.
Nope. My comment is based on the facts....but my feelings on this take into account the wider context (e.g. that Clemmie had spoken to CB about how terrible a particular race issue was). In another example, say that I spoke to a male police officer about a report that had been released showing how women were 938474 more likely to be sexually assaulted in the street. I tell him it concerns me, and worries me. Let's say that he empathizes and that I regard him as an ally. If I then found out that that male police officer had declared publicly that I was always making it about women, bringing everything back to being female, I'd find that really hurtful and a complete dismissal of the issue he'd pretended to care about. Would I ever confide in him again about this issue? Absolutely not. Would I want him investigating sexual assault cases? Probably not. I would be upset by the betrayal. That's all I'm saying.
 
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How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?
 
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How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?
I am sorry but I am just going to stick to the word 'agressive'. Period. If someone is behaving in an agressive way they are just that.
 
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How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?
If you look at the context she’s saying alongside the implication that CB was using her race as a weapon. The ‘angry black woman’ stereotype is pervasive and I think the reason the aggressive comment was viewed as racist. The main ref to her being aggressive was her reaction to her child’s experience of racism no? I can understand that making someone very upset. That anger could come from a life experience that a white person wouldn’t understand, maybe we should be worrying and thinking about that rather than worrying we don’t get to call someone aggressive when we want.
 
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If you look at the context she’s saying alongside the implication that CB was using her race as a weapon. The ‘angry black woman’ stereotype is pervasive and I think the reason the aggressive comment was viewed as racist. The main ref to her being aggressive was her reaction to her child’s experience of racism no? I can understand that making someone very upset. That anger could come from a life experience that a white person wouldn’t understand, maybe we should be worrying and thinking about that rather than worrying we don’t get to call someone aggressive when we want.
Yes it’s all about context when you are saying it , it’s pretty sketchy criteria . Had she just called her aggressive and never mentioned her using her race at any point it wouldn’t have came across the same .
 
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I am sorry but I am just going to stick to the word 'agressive'. Period. If someone is behaving in an agressive way they are just that.
That’s a bit aggressive :D but in all seriousness you can say what you want, but just don’t be surprised if people might take it the wrong way.
 
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If you look at the context she’s saying alongside the implication that CB was using her race as a weapon. The ‘angry black woman’ stereotype is pervasive and I think the reason the aggressive comment was viewed as racist. The main ref to her being aggressive was her reaction to her child’s experience of racism no? I can understand that making someone very upset. That anger could come from a life experience that a white person wouldn’t understand, maybe we should be worrying and thinking about that rather than worrying we don’t get to call someone aggressive when we want.
I completely agree. If she was referring to CB being aggressive because of a particular thing she’d done, it would be different. But she was talking about it in the context of race, which is why, in my opinion, using ‘aggressive’ in this context was racist and supporting the trope of the ‘angry black woman’
 
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That’s a bit aggressive :D but in all seriousness you can say what you want, but just don’t be surprised if people might take it the wrong way.
Nothing agresive about it, just factual. If I were to behave in an agressive way I would find it normal if people called me that.
 
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That’s a bit aggressive :D but in all seriousness you can say what you want, but just don’t be surprised if people might take it the wrong way.
Definitely. By the same token if you choose to threaten people with a shocking level of violence then you can't be surprised if people tend to call you aggressive.
 
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I can’t believe we’re back to the ‘it wasn’t racist’ again. Even if the rest of what people are saying about how MOD might feel is conjecture, a white woman saying a black woman always brings it ‘back to race’ as if it’s a choice she gets to make about her life experience as a black woman is racist. MOD would have no idea what it’s like to be a POC so she can’t say something to trivialise someone’s experiences and imply the person is exaggerating what they feel.
She wasn't trivialising anything. 🙄she said that CB was aggressive and brought it back to race when she was called on it, in my opinion she didnt say she did it because of her race, she did it because of her personality. How is it racist of it's true? Like I said before, are we supposed to be afraid to call out rude, obnoxious, aggressive behaviour because someone has a different skin colour to us, in fear of being called racist. You can dislike someone for their personality and not what they look like.

Edited because I can't concentrate on two things at once lol
 
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